Charles Lechmere, finally vindicated, proof ?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Christer

So we'll log that one as a "maybe" then...

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

Dave:

"And her descendants have bragged about the connection ever since?"

I honestly donīt know. Do you? I think it is a fair assumption that the story will have gone down through the generations, and that the Cox descendants know about it.

The best,
Fisherman

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Thank you. Indeed in Trevor's case a screen too was used.
In the case of a Coroner's request, I'd imagine that any psuedonym would be made by pre-arrangement of course?

Best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

I can only speak of my own experiences and that has never happened.

However, I have known of evidence given via video link with the witness speaking via video from behind a screen.

Trevors experience wouldn't have surprised me. Again it goes back to the point I was making some weeks ago of 'known as'. The name truly is irrelevant.

In 1888, if a inquest witness was reluctant to appear for valid reasons, his evidence was read out in his absence, with Coroners questions put before hand and responded likewise. However I'm not sure if a witness is summons, and the Coroner insists, if the witness has to attend. I suspect he does but, as with Trevors man, he would be allowed to give his name as an psuedonym.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Is there, to your personal knowledge, a reason, or are there reasons when an individual can give a name only? Or position only?
(I am thinking here of undercover work, and remember that the gentleman in the case of Trevor's appeal gave his occupation and name as a letter of the alphabet.)

But all that has nothing to do with Lechmere of course.

Best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Phil,

I'm merely quoting the Rules and Regulation book. As admitted, I do not know how that stands in inquest.

I do know when I've given evidence I have stated my name and where I work.

My point is, regarding the matter of Cross giving his name and address when requested, is that failure to do so was deemed an offence.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Failure to provide a name and an address, when asked for by a PC, was an offense.

Not sure how that stands at inques I must admit, did everywhere else.

Monty

Hello Monty,

Good morning.

In comparison with comment in court, 'Joe Bloggs of No fixed abode', I have a vague memory that it isnt a requirement unless asked for specifically by the Coroner? I may be totally wrong though I admit.

Best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Failure to provide a name and an address, when asked for by a PC, was an offense.

Not sure how that stands at inques I must admit, did everywhere else.

Monty

[CitizenX]

Hello Mr X ,

Yes i'm afraid witness are legally bound to answer any question the coroner See's fit to asks them , within reason .... and yes the Coroner did always ask " will the witness state their full name and Address for the inquest" take a Look for your self , through the countless witness statements .. of every JtR inquest .. The only people who are not pressed for an address are either Policemen , ex Policemen , doctors , and non essential witnesses .. But everyone is asked all the same . it is there in black and white Mr X

"In Reply to the Coroner he said" ..

Edward Walker .. I live at 15 , maidwell street , Albony rd
Henry Tomkins, Horse slaugter , 12 coventry street , Bethnal green .
Emily Holland , 18 Thrawl street
Emma green , cottage next to murder scene
Robert paul , 30 Forster street ,

I could go on through every inquest , but i'm sure you get the point . Each and every time it is always the same . The first thing confirmed by the witness is Name and ADDRESS.

cheers

moonbegger

Not sure where you created the "In reply to the coroner he said" quote as it's not in any of the inquest reports on Nichols I can find.

You are also incorrect in saying that only Police Officers and Surgeons did not give an address.

Read the testimony recorded for Patrick Mulshaw, the Whitechapel District Board of Works nightwatchman. He doesn't give an address either, just the location where he was working. Thomas Eade another, albeit unreliable, witness also states that he was "a signalman, in the employ of the East London Railway", but gives no home address. These two examples alone are from the Polly Nicols inquest reported in the press...maybe there are more examples if I started wading through the other inquest reports.

Cross stated that he was in the employ of Pickfords. This must have been acceptable to the coroner to establish identification. Pickfords was a reputable employer, Cross had worked for them for over 20 years and the police had obviously checked this out.

It's all there in black and white

[Cogidubnus]

"Do we have many examples of people bragging that their relatives had a ripper connection?"

Violenia was a discredited witness. Toppy & Shine did their own bragging.

Tony Williams, perhaps, for the alleged involvement of 'Uncle Jack'?

So including the supposedly fraudulent "Shine" case we haven't any so far...ok

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Masonic carman?

Cog
I am unconcerned whether you wish to believe that Charles Lechmere was so poor that he could only afford one set of clothes as there is Plenty to suggest otherwise, just as I am unconcerned whether you chose to adopt the alternative line that maybe he thought he might be able to get to work, as again there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise - and in any case why actually wear the apron in court.

That's honestly fine by me Lechmere and not a problem at all...

All the very best

Dave

[Lechmere]

Cog
I am unconcerned whether you wish to believe that Charles Lechmere was so poor that he could only afford one set of clothes as there is Plenty to suggest otherwise, just as I am unconcerned whether you chose to adopt the alternative line that maybe he thought he might be able to get to work, as again there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise - and in any case why actually wear the apron in court.

[Lechmere]

Need I point out that Toppy's story - true or not - was relayed by his son.
Incidentally doubting that East End Families boasted of Ripper connections is about as facile as claiming that you cannot estimate how long it takes to walk a short distance.

[Observer]

Hi Moonbegger

Emma Green, cottage next to the murder scene

why is that any different to

Chas Andrew Cross, carman in the employ of Mssrs Pickford and Co

Both easily identifiable, both easily traceable by the police or indeed the killer of Polly Nichols

Observer

[moonbegger]

Was there a legal requirement to state your home address whilst giving evidence at an inquest?

An inquest is not a court of law and is not bound by any rules of anonymity. The coroner can run the proceedings however he sees fit as long as the Coroners rules are followed.

Cross stated that he was in the employ of Pickfords which probably satisfied the coroner as to the validity of the witness..its also very likely the Police had already confirmed this as a contact address for him.

To state that not giving his home address when it wasn't even required as some sort of cover up is stretching the "theory" a little to my mind..

Hello Mr X ,

Yes i'm afraid witness are legally bound to answer any question the coroner See's fit to asks them , within reason .... and yes the Coroner did always ask " will the witness state their full name and Address for the inquest" take a Look for your self , through the countless witness statements .. of every JtR inquest .. The only people who are not pressed for an address are either Policemen , ex Policemen , doctors , and non essential witnesses .. But everyone is asked all the same . it is there in black and white Mr X

"In Reply to the Coroner he said" ..

Edward Walker .. I live at 15 , maidwell street , Albony rd
Henry Tomkins, Horse slaugter , 12 coventry street , Bethnal green .
Emily Holland , 18 Thrawl street
Emma green , cottage next to murder scene
Robert paul , 30 Forster street ,

I could go on through every inquest , but i'm sure you get the point . Each and every time it is always the same . The first thing confirmed by the witness is Name and ADDRESS.

cheers

moonbegger