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  • Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    How many known serial killers had a connection to the case before they were ultimately caught?
    all of them obviously
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      Good point Harry

      Regards
      Herlock
      why is it a good point?
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post


        Chapman only fits time wise if we accept the murder took place even earlier than Phillips suggests and we ignore all the witnesses.
        I don't think lech ties into Stride or Eddowes. The timing seems wrong to me. Heading towards Liverpool street after Stride seems illogical. Far better to have headed East and North surely given the time.

        However it's of course open to debate.



        Steve
        Hi, Steve,

        Best to throw logic out. I'll explain.

        If memory serves the theory is that Cross may have been visiting his mother and young daughter near Berner Street, or visiting pubs in the area when he killed Stride. He then went in search of another victim around St. Boltoph's, retiring to Mitre Square with Eddowes, then perhaps popping in at Pickford's in Broad Street to wash up - on a Sunday - before heading home to Bethnal Green.

        Thus, it seems to me if we make Cross the Ripper, then he's a killer with no real modus operandi, at least as it pertains to when he stalks and kills his victims. And that's an issue when a cornerstone of the "case" against "the carman" is that the murders occurred along his "route" to work, a route that took him through the "killing zone".

        The "double event" occurred on a Sunday, as we know. Stride was killed around 1am, Eddowes between 1:35 and 1:45. Clearly, these women were not killed while Charles Cross walked his "route to work" through the "killing zone". Thus, we must divert from the damning fact that his route to work was near "all the murder sites" and we must accept Cross killing - not while strolling along that incriminating route to work - but while visiting and pubbing on a night off near Berner Street. So, that means Stride and Eddowes weren't killed as Cross strolled tow work. So, that's two of the five (canonical) victims NOT killed while Charles Cross was made that incriminating walk to work.

        So, let's look at Chapman. This was Saturday. We'll assume Cross was due at work at 4am. Richardson was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street at 4:45. He saw nothing. Elizabeth Long says she saw Chapman talking to a man at 5:30am. Thus, we have two witnesses telling us that Chapman was alive and not in the back of 29 Hanbury before 4:45am. So, now we have Chapman not killed while Cross was on his route to work because he was already AT work when she was killed. It should be noted that there was - at one time - an attempt to suggest that Cross drove a cart to the market near Hanbury Street and, while it was being unloaded, slipped off to meet, proposition, murder, and extensively mutilate Chapman, returning to fetch the cart and go about his business. One can debate the plausibility of this (and that's been done) but the point here is simple: Annie Chapman was not killed while Charles Cross was on his route to work. She was very likely killed while he was AT work.

        That brings us to Kelly. She was killed on a Friday morning. So, it was a working day for Cross. According to Mary Ann Cox, Kelly is singing at 1am. If she didn't go out again and was in the company of her killer then - again - it wasn't Cross on is route "through the killing zone to work" in that he wasn't due at work until 4am. According to Hutchinson she was talking to a man 2am. If Hutchinson is correct and that man was her killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work, either. Cox tells us she heard someone go out at 3am. If this was the killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work. At 4am Elizabeth Prater hears someone cry out "Oh! Murder!" If this was the end of Kelly then she wasn't done for by Cross on his way to work because he had just ARRIVED at work. If we choose to believe Caroline Maxwell, that she saw Kelly at 830am then she was alive while Cross was on the clock, not on his route to work. The same is true if we believe that Maurice Lewis saw her with Barnett at 10am.

        This is why I struggle when Cross' route to work is used as damning evidence. The only (canonical) victim killed while the man was ON his route to work is the woman he FOUND lying in Buck's Row ON HIS ROUTE TO WORK.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          Hi patrick




          the people you mention here have no connection to the case. the witnesses do. many killers, serial killers have initially only been thought of as witnesses and they turn out to be the killer. History has taught us this.
          They all have "connections" to the case. It's just a matter of believing that the "connections" are real.

          Comment


          • Hello to the forum,

            since I admit I am not that well read in what must now be thousands of pages of publications and public discussion on Lechmere as a suspect, can you recollect whether the following question was ever answered by the Lechmere proponents:

            If he killed on his way to work, why invariably choose bank holidays for his hobby?
            Assuming he had to work on those holidays, what difference would it make from any other day of the calendar?

            Clues are scarce in the Ripper mystery. The GSG is one clue, the pattern of holidays is another. Any proponent of a suspect would need to find some explanation for both of them to fit his theory.

            Thanks and regards
            IchabodCrane

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
              They all have "connections" to the case. It's just a matter of believing that the "connections" are real.
              What connections did they have to the case?
              I meant actual physical documented connection to the case, obviously.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
                Hi, Steve,

                Best to throw logic out. I'll explain.

                If memory serves the theory is that Cross may have been visiting his mother and young daughter near Berner Street, or visiting pubs in the area when he killed Stride. He then went in search of another victim around St. Boltoph's, retiring to Mitre Square with Eddowes, then perhaps popping in at Pickford's in Broad Street to wash up - on a Sunday - before heading home to Bethnal Green.

                Thus, it seems to me if we make Cross the Ripper, then he's a killer with no real modus operandi, at least as it pertains to when he stalks and kills his victims. And that's an issue when a cornerstone of the "case" against "the carman" is that the murders occurred along his "route" to work, a route that took him through the "killing zone".

                The "double event" occurred on a Sunday, as we know. Stride was killed around 1am, Eddowes between 1:35 and 1:45. Clearly, these women were not killed while Charles Cross walked his "route to work" through the "killing zone". Thus, we must divert from the damning fact that his route to work was near "all the murder sites" and we must accept Cross killing - not while strolling along that incriminating route to work - but while visiting and pubbing on a night off near Berner Street. So, that means Stride and Eddowes weren't killed as Cross strolled tow work. So, that's two of the five (canonical) victims NOT killed while Charles Cross was made that incriminating walk to work.

                So, let's look at Chapman. This was Saturday. We'll assume Cross was due at work at 4am. Richardson was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street at 4:45. He saw nothing. Elizabeth Long says she saw Chapman talking to a man at 5:30am. Thus, we have two witnesses telling us that Chapman was alive and not in the back of 29 Hanbury before 4:45am. So, now we have Chapman not killed while Cross was on his route to work because he was already AT work when she was killed. It should be noted that there was - at one time - an attempt to suggest that Cross drove a cart to the market near Hanbury Street and, while it was being unloaded, slipped off to meet, proposition, murder, and extensively mutilate Chapman, returning to fetch the cart and go about his business. One can debate the plausibility of this (and that's been done) but the point here is simple: Annie Chapman was not killed while Charles Cross was on his route to work. She was very likely killed while he was AT work.

                That brings us to Kelly. She was killed on a Friday morning. So, it was a working day for Cross. According to Mary Ann Cox, Kelly is singing at 1am. If she didn't go out again and was in the company of her killer then - again - it wasn't Cross on is route "through the killing zone to work" in that he wasn't due at work until 4am. According to Hutchinson she was talking to a man 2am. If Hutchinson is correct and that man was her killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work, either. Cox tells us she heard someone go out at 3am. If this was the killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work. At 4am Elizabeth Prater hears someone cry out "Oh! Murder!" If this was the end of Kelly then she wasn't done for by Cross on his way to work because he had just ARRIVED at work. If we choose to believe Caroline Maxwell, that she saw Kelly at 830am then she was alive while Cross was on the clock, not on his route to work. The same is true if we believe that Maurice Lewis saw her with Barnett at 10am.

                This is why I struggle when Cross' route to work is used as damning evidence. The only (canonical) victim killed while the man was ON his route to work is the woman he FOUND lying in Buck's Row ON HIS ROUTE TO WORK.
                Excellent analysis Patrick, which clearly undermines a key part of the Lechmere theory.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by IchabodCrane View Post
                  Hello to the forum,

                  since I admit I am not that well read in what must now be thousands of pages of publications and public discussion on Lechmere as a suspect, can you recollect whether the following question was ever answered by the Lechmere proponents:

                  If he killed on his way to work, why invariably choose bank holidays for his hobby?
                  Assuming he had to work on those holidays, what difference would it make from any other day of the calendar?

                  Clues are scarce in the Ripper mystery. The GSG is one clue, the pattern of holidays is another. Any proponent of a suspect would need to find some explanation for both of them to fit his theory.

                  Thanks and regards
                  IchabodCrane
                  Hi,

                  What do you mean by

                  "invariably bank holidays?

                  Cheers, Pierre

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
                    Hi, Steve,

                    Best to throw logic out. I'll explain.

                    If memory serves the theory is that Cross may have been visiting his mother and young daughter near Berner Street, or visiting pubs in the area when he killed Stride. He then went in search of another victim around St. Boltoph's, retiring to Mitre Square with Eddowes, then perhaps popping in at Pickford's in Broad Street to wash up - on a Sunday - before heading home to Bethnal Green.

                    Thus, it seems to me if we make Cross the Ripper, then he's a killer with no real modus operandi, at least as it pertains to when he stalks and kills his victims. And that's an issue when a cornerstone of the "case" against "the carman" is that the murders occurred along his "route" to work, a route that took him through the "killing zone".

                    The "double event" occurred on a Sunday, as we know. Stride was killed around 1am, Eddowes between 1:35 and 1:45. Clearly, these women were not killed while Charles Cross walked his "route to work" through the "killing zone". Thus, we must divert from the damning fact that his route to work was near "all the murder sites" and we must accept Cross killing - not while strolling along that incriminating route to work - but while visiting and pubbing on a night off near Berner Street. So, that means Stride and Eddowes weren't killed as Cross strolled tow work. So, that's two of the five (canonical) victims NOT killed while Charles Cross was made that incriminating walk to work.

                    So, let's look at Chapman. This was Saturday. We'll assume Cross was due at work at 4am. Richardson was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street at 4:45. He saw nothing. Elizabeth Long says she saw Chapman talking to a man at 5:30am. Thus, we have two witnesses telling us that Chapman was alive and not in the back of 29 Hanbury before 4:45am. So, now we have Chapman not killed while Cross was on his route to work because he was already AT work when she was killed. It should be noted that there was - at one time - an attempt to suggest that Cross drove a cart to the market near Hanbury Street and, while it was being unloaded, slipped off to meet, proposition, murder, and extensively mutilate Chapman, returning to fetch the cart and go about his business. One can debate the plausibility of this (and that's been done) but the point here is simple: Annie Chapman was not killed while Charles Cross was on his route to work. She was very likely killed while he was AT work.

                    That brings us to Kelly. She was killed on a Friday morning. So, it was a working day for Cross. According to Mary Ann Cox, Kelly is singing at 1am. If she didn't go out again and was in the company of her killer then - again - it wasn't Cross on is route "through the killing zone to work" in that he wasn't due at work until 4am. According to Hutchinson she was talking to a man 2am. If Hutchinson is correct and that man was her killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work, either. Cox tells us she heard someone go out at 3am. If this was the killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work. At 4am Elizabeth Prater hears someone cry out "Oh! Murder!" If this was the end of Kelly then she wasn't done for by Cross on his way to work because he had just ARRIVED at work. If we choose to believe Caroline Maxwell, that she saw Kelly at 830am then she was alive while Cross was on the clock, not on his route to work. The same is true if we believe that Maurice Lewis saw her with Barnett at 10am.

                    This is why I struggle when Cross' route to work is used as damning evidence. The only (canonical) victim killed while the man was ON his route to work is the woman he FOUND lying in Buck's Row ON HIS ROUTE TO WORK.
                    Patrick,
                    You have no argument from me on any of that, you make the point well I think.

                    Steve

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      why is it a good point?
                      Abby

                      I took it to mean that certain connections may only have come to light after guilt had been established. Investigators might not have had things like 'this guy passed this site every day.' Just because it can be made to appear that CL could have been in certain areas it doesn't imply guilt.

                      To be honest I may have misinterpreted Harry's meaning

                      Regards
                      Herlock
                      Regards

                      Sir Herlock Sholmes



                      “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                      “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
                        Hi, Steve,

                        Best to throw logic out. I'll explain.

                        If memory serves the theory is that Cross may have been visiting his mother and young daughter near Berner Street, or visiting pubs in the area when he killed Stride. He then went in search of another victim around St. Boltoph's, retiring to Mitre Square with Eddowes, then perhaps popping in at Pickford's in Broad Street to wash up - on a Sunday - before heading home to Bethnal Green.

                        Thus, it seems to me if we make Cross the Ripper, then he's a killer with no real modus operandi, at least as it pertains to when he stalks and kills his victims. And that's an issue when a cornerstone of the "case" against "the carman" is that the murders occurred along his "route" to work, a route that took him through the "killing zone".

                        The "double event" occurred on a Sunday, as we know. Stride was killed around 1am, Eddowes between 1:35 and 1:45. Clearly, these women were not killed while Charles Cross walked his "route to work" through the "killing zone". Thus, we must divert from the damning fact that his route to work was near "all the murder sites" and we must accept Cross killing - not while strolling along that incriminating route to work - but while visiting and pubbing on a night off near Berner Street. So, that means Stride and Eddowes weren't killed as Cross strolled tow work. So, that's two of the five (canonical) victims NOT killed while Charles Cross was made that incriminating walk to work.

                        So, let's look at Chapman. This was Saturday. We'll assume Cross was due at work at 4am. Richardson was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street at 4:45. He saw nothing. Elizabeth Long says she saw Chapman talking to a man at 5:30am. Thus, we have two witnesses telling us that Chapman was alive and not in the back of 29 Hanbury before 4:45am. So, now we have Chapman not killed while Cross was on his route to work because he was already AT work when she was killed. It should be noted that there was - at one time - an attempt to suggest that Cross drove a cart to the market near Hanbury Street and, while it was being unloaded, slipped off to meet, proposition, murder, and extensively mutilate Chapman, returning to fetch the cart and go about his business. One can debate the plausibility of this (and that's been done) but the point here is simple: Annie Chapman was not killed while Charles Cross was on his route to work. She was very likely killed while he was AT work.

                        That brings us to Kelly. She was killed on a Friday morning. So, it was a working day for Cross. According to Mary Ann Cox, Kelly is singing at 1am. If she didn't go out again and was in the company of her killer then - again - it wasn't Cross on is route "through the killing zone to work" in that he wasn't due at work until 4am. According to Hutchinson she was talking to a man 2am. If Hutchinson is correct and that man was her killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work, either. Cox tells us she heard someone go out at 3am. If this was the killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work. At 4am Elizabeth Prater hears someone cry out "Oh! Murder!" If this was the end of Kelly then she wasn't done for by Cross on his way to work because he had just ARRIVED at work. If we choose to believe Caroline Maxwell, that she saw Kelly at 830am then she was alive while Cross was on the clock, not on his route to work. The same is true if we believe that Maurice Lewis saw her with Barnett at 10am.

                        This is why I struggle when Cross' route to work is used as damning evidence. The only (canonical) victim killed while the man was ON his route to work is the woman he FOUND lying in Buck's Row ON HIS ROUTE TO WORK.
                        As you'd probably expect, you get no arguements from me there Patrick. An excellent post. The reason that you struggle when CL's route is used as damning evidence is that it's not damning evidence. It's not even evidence. It's a tortuous attempt to make CL fit.

                        Regards
                        Herlock
                        Regards

                        Sir Herlock Sholmes



                        “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                        “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                          Abby

                          I took it to mean that certain connections may only have come to light after guilt had been established. Investigators might not have had things like 'this guy passed this site every day.' Just because it can be made to appear that CL could have been in certain areas it doesn't imply guilt.

                          To be honest I may have misinterpreted Harry's meaning

                          Regards
                          Herlock
                          I think harry might have meant to say "KNOWN connections to the case". Because the way he wrote it makes really no point- as I responded, obviously they all do!!

                          if he did mean KNOWN connection to the case before they were caught, then I would say some of them did even. they were witnesses or at least persons of interest and there they would have probably stayed if something else didn't break the case.

                          The main point I was trying to make is that IMHO unless someone has an actual physical, at the time documented connection to the case-they can never really be a viable candidate, because you could basically fit any one up for the ripper ad nauseum.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            The main point I was trying to make is that IMHO unless someone has an actual physical, at the time documented connection to the case-they can never really be a viable candidate, because you could basically fit any one up for the ripper ad nauseum.
                            Hi Abby

                            Conversely, in the case of CL in my opinion, a 'known connection' can be used to turn a witness into a suspect. So we get Robert Mann and Albert Bachert for eg. I understand your point though. All options are rife with pitfalls. I used Bury as an example earlier (although I'm definately not promoting him)
                            So, in that case we can give ourselves a choice:

                            Cross/Lechmere- can definately be placed, for a period, alone with the victim at the time of her death / but no other evidence against him. Or:

                            Bury - cannot be placed with any of the suspects / but was known to be violent, used prostitutes, lived within easy access to the murder sites and was a proven murderer of a woman using a knife.

                            Regards
                            Herlock
                            Regards

                            Sir Herlock Sholmes



                            “Conspiracy theorists, she knew, were paranoid by definition, and usually with good reason – they were indeed being watched, largely because they were standing on an upturned bucket, haranguing the sheeple about their wingnut delusions.”

                            “If you argue with a madman, it is extremely probable that you will get the worst of it; for in many ways his mind moves all the quicker for not being delayed by the things that go with good judgment.”

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Patrick S View Post
                              Hi, Steve,

                              Best to throw logic out. I'll explain.

                              If memory serves the theory is that Cross may have been visiting his mother and young daughter near Berner Street, or visiting pubs in the area when he killed Stride. He then went in search of another victim around St. Boltoph's, retiring to Mitre Square with Eddowes, then perhaps popping in at Pickford's in Broad Street to wash up - on a Sunday - before heading home to Bethnal Green.

                              Thus, it seems to me if we make Cross the Ripper, then he's a killer with no real modus operandi, at least as it pertains to when he stalks and kills his victims. And that's an issue when a cornerstone of the "case" against "the carman" is that the murders occurred along his "route" to work, a route that took him through the "killing zone".

                              The "double event" occurred on a Sunday, as we know. Stride was killed around 1am, Eddowes between 1:35 and 1:45. Clearly, these women were not killed while Charles Cross walked his "route to work" through the "killing zone". Thus, we must divert from the damning fact that his route to work was near "all the murder sites" and we must accept Cross killing - not while strolling along that incriminating route to work - but while visiting and pubbing on a night off near Berner Street. So, that means Stride and Eddowes weren't killed as Cross strolled tow work. So, that's two of the five (canonical) victims NOT killed while Charles Cross was made that incriminating walk to work.

                              So, let's look at Chapman. This was Saturday. We'll assume Cross was due at work at 4am. Richardson was in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street at 4:45. He saw nothing. Elizabeth Long says she saw Chapman talking to a man at 5:30am. Thus, we have two witnesses telling us that Chapman was alive and not in the back of 29 Hanbury before 4:45am. So, now we have Chapman not killed while Cross was on his route to work because he was already AT work when she was killed. It should be noted that there was - at one time - an attempt to suggest that Cross drove a cart to the market near Hanbury Street and, while it was being unloaded, slipped off to meet, proposition, murder, and extensively mutilate Chapman, returning to fetch the cart and go about his business. One can debate the plausibility of this (and that's been done) but the point here is simple: Annie Chapman was not killed while Charles Cross was on his route to work. She was very likely killed while he was AT work.

                              That brings us to Kelly. She was killed on a Friday morning. So, it was a working day for Cross. According to Mary Ann Cox, Kelly is singing at 1am. If she didn't go out again and was in the company of her killer then - again - it wasn't Cross on is route "through the killing zone to work" in that he wasn't due at work until 4am. According to Hutchinson she was talking to a man 2am. If Hutchinson is correct and that man was her killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work, either. Cox tells us she heard someone go out at 3am. If this was the killer then it wasn't Cross on his way to work. At 4am Elizabeth Prater hears someone cry out "Oh! Murder!" If this was the end of Kelly then she wasn't done for by Cross on his way to work because he had just ARRIVED at work. If we choose to believe Caroline Maxwell, that she saw Kelly at 830am then she was alive while Cross was on the clock, not on his route to work. The same is true if we believe that Maurice Lewis saw her with Barnett at 10am.

                              This is why I struggle when Cross' route to work is used as damning evidence. The only (canonical) victim killed while the man was ON his route to work is the woman he FOUND lying in Buck's Row ON HIS ROUTE TO WORK.
                              I bet Fisherman never presented those points to Scobie.

                              "When the coincidences mount up...and they do in his case". Not.

                              And there is the bye bye to the "support" from Scobie. The Queen´s barrister.

                              Pierre
                              Last edited by Pierre; 07-18-2017, 04:39 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Hi All,

                                This thread has gone so far from it starting point, that i have started a new thread on the nature of evidence, which seems to be what most of the recent debate is about.

                                That leaves hopefully this thread clear for the purpose it was designed for. to discuss if Lechmere was a psychopath.


                                Steve

                                Comment

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