Le Grand in Denmark 1917-21

[Debra A]

I went through a different police registry ("Politiets mandtaller", a semiannual registration of all Copenhagen citizens over the age of ten), trying to pinpoint Charles Grand's whereabouts:

here is Charles Grand in november 1917 (last entry):
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4969253

The info is the same as in the census, but it's the earliest mention in Danish sources of his birth at sea:

Charles Grande; 12/3 1856; "on board the Galatea nær Cork Harbour"; interpreter; 15 Ifeld Road London [Place of residence on 1st of may 1917].

The last column confirms Debra Arif's find of Grande's marriage to Elizabeth Clarke in 1907 - the address is the same as Elizabeth Grande's until shortly before her death, I believe.

Yes, that's correct.

That's an interesting theory, but one has to wonder why he'd keep it up until the 1930s, unless, as someone has suggested, he started believing it himself, or he was so committed to the story that he couldn't go back to the truth.

Perhaps he was involved in fighting his deportation even after the event so had to keep up the pretense and in that sense was committed to it?
I can't imagine Grande would have left England without a fight and I believe this was his fight.
I did a little checking on 19th C qualifications for nationality and believe that in the UK and Ireland at that time, place of birth was the main criteria used to determine nationality, more so than the place of birth of the child's father that some other countries used. I am sure that if Grande had genuinely been born at sea near or in Cork Harbour that would have made him an Irish citizen and prevented his deportation to Denmark.


Thanks for the further information Kattrupp.

[Kattrup]

I went through a different police registry ("Politiets mandtaller", a semiannual registration of all Copenhagen citizens over the age of ten), trying to pinpoint Charles Grand's whereabouts:

here is Charles Grand in november 1917 (last entry):
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4969253

The info is the same as in the census, but it's the earliest mention in Danish sources of his birth at sea:

Charles Grande; 12/3 1856; "on board the Galatea nær Cork Harbour"; interpreter; 15 Ifeld Road London [Place of residence on 1st of may 1917].


The last column confirms Debra Arif's find of Grande's marriage to Elizabeth Clarke in 1907 - the address is the same as Elizabeth Grande's until shortly before her death, I believe.


Also, I think he must have filled out the "Place of birth"-column himself - both here and in the census, since they're mainly filled out in English, i.e. "on board the Galatea", "Cork Harbour"

Here he is again in May 1918:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4969176

No new info, occupation "interpreter"

The registry for his address in November 1918 appears to be missing.

May 1919:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=6510269

Occupation: "English teacher"

Here in November 1919:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=5254179

No new info.

May 1920:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=5254179

No new info - the date scribbled after his name is the day he moved to new address. Place of birth listed as: At sea, close to Cork Ireland.

November 1920:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4778794

No new info.

May 1921:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4778726

No new info.

November 1921:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4778660

No new info.

May 1922:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4778598

No new info

November 1922:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4778536

No new info - Place of birth simply "Cork Harbour"

May 1923:
http://www.kbharkiv.dk/kildeviser/#!...2&item=4778474

No new info.


May 1923 is the last time the registry was updated.

Grande was intelligent and probably figured this might a good way to try and avoid inevitable deportation when his latest sentence was served.It would surely involve questions about his nationality if he was born at sea near Cork or in Cork harbour?

That's an interesting theory, but one has to wonder why he'd keep it up until the 1930s, unless, as someone has suggested, he started believing it himself, or he was so committed to the story that he couldn't go back to the truth.

[Debra A]

My twopence worth

As I mentioned on the thread on JTRForums; Grande's re-birth at sea is first documented in 1911 when he is serving time as George Jackson. Interestingly, in 1905 the new Aliens Act was brought in to control immigration and authorities were given new powers to deport foreigners who were convicted criminals.
Grande's marriage to a British citizen also occurred around this time, 1906.

Grande was intelligent and probably figured this might a good way to try and avoid inevitable deportation when his latest sentence was served.It would surely involve questions about his nationality if he was born at sea near Cork or in Cork harbour? I have a hunch it would probably make him a British or Irish Citizen but I haven't checked out for certain what the UK and Ireland's stance was on nationality when born at sea.

Up until 1911 Grande's records say he was born in Denmark. In an 1889 court case he claimed he was born in Copenhagen, specifically and had come to England in 1881. This was obviously to distance himself from the idea that he was convicted criminal Christian Neilson, supposedly a German Catholic ten years older, but Grande's double! He convinced a court jury he wasn't Christian Neilson but not the authorities who gave him the same criminal number and added his name as an alias of Neilson's in the habitual criminal registers.

[Phil Carter]

No worries

As far as I can tell, the expedition-ship remained in the Danish navy until 1861. It is unlikely to have carried pregnant women across the Atlantic, then.

Hi Kattrup,

Agreed. Hence the interpretation that Grand interwove the "born on a famous ship" story.
I suspect an unwanted pregnancy from a visiting Danish sailor in Ireland from ca. June 1855...perhaps not even a sailor from the Galathea? (Even then..it must be shown that it docked there (Cork) in June 1855, no?


Phil


Phil

[Robert]

I think the word in column 10 from 1930 is simply "Ireland" though what the 'VD' in heavy pencil written over it is, I don't know.

[Kattrup]

Posts crossed Kattrup.. beklager.


Phil

No worries

As far as I can tell, the expedition-ship remained in the Danish navy until 1861. It is unlikely to have carried pregnant women across the Atlantic, then.

[Phil Carter]

Posts crossed Kattrup.. beklager.


Phil

[Phil Carter]

Just to make clear..Grand was born 12/3/1856..so not during the expedition voyage.


Phil

[Kattrup]

Well, I think the ship sailed on after the expedition so he does not necessarily mean during the expedition.

His birthdate would also be off by 10 years. So I don't think he's claiming to have been born during the expedition itself.

But it would be important to know if there was an Irish ship thusly named (note that Galathea is spelled both with and without 'h' in the different censuses).

Presumably at least his father would have been Danish, in order for him to claim Danish nationality. But if his story is true, it's possible he never really lived in Denmark until he was deported, instead growing up in the US as son of immigrant Danes.

[Phil Carter]

Hi all,

The Galathea (English spelling) was the first of three expeditions. .the first being with assistance of The Royal Danish Navy. It was a three masted sailing ship built in 1831, about 140ft in length.

On board the 45-47 expedition were 231 seamen and scientists. It also had 36 guns and supplies for a year. During the 2 year voyage, 20 sailors died.

The being born on a ship of this sort seems unlikely, and birth in Ireland more the likely. Our Mr. Grand seems to have woven his birth into his life story.

An Irish mother is possible.. (the name of Grant may be her maiden name?) And possibly a sailor from the ship as the father..though I find this doubtful, especially as the ship was starting a 2 year voyage from Denmark..not Ireland.

But I think it likely that Grand made the interweaving of the famous ship into his story more than it really was.


Phil

[Kattrup]

Here he is in the 1921 census:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/bill...86012,13867827

Some additional info is available - he is listed just before the number 19 in the second column:

Charles Grand, Male, 12/3 1856, Married-2 [apparently 1=unmarried, 2=married, 3=widowed].

This is where it gets interesting:

Place of birth: on board the ship Galatea, near Cork.

Arrival in Copenhagen: 1917, place of residence before: London.
Religion: Danish Lutheran Church

Position in household: lodger

Occupation: language teacher

Now, the ship's name Galatea plays an important role in Danish scientific history. A research expedition on a ship with that name sailed around the world 1845-47. It became famous, and the name was/is well-known.

Whether he's refering to that ship, or to an Irish ship of that name, is yet to be determined, I suppose...but I bet his parents can be tracked down, if such a ship journey existed.


Actually, here he is on the same address in 1925:

https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/bill...00921,16062981

Same details as above - place of birth: on board the ship Galathea, near Cork harbour.

One interesting tidbit from the 1925-census:

In column 5, citizenship, is written and crossed out:

(presumably)
Danish

Again, in 1930:
https://www.sa.dk/ao-soegesider/bill...03796,16396808

Same info as above, but something unintelligible is added in the column place of birth: the ships name seems longer than Galathea, and there's a scribble at the end.
Also, in citizenship, again we have: Presumably danish?

Occupation is "Private language teacher"


....this thread should be retitled now - Le Grand in Denmark 1917-30...

[Kattrup]

Thanks.

I'll try to locate some more info about his doings in Denmark next week. Where he went in 1921, for instance. I'm assuming he didn't die, since that would normally be written on the card and the card itself moved to the inactive section.

I just wonder why he'd use an alias in his home country. I'm also curious about what he might have translated, if anything. Being deported to Denmark, he had to make a living - he was ~61 at the time, so how did he support himself?

[Debra A]

Good work Kattrup!
That is certainly Grande after his 1917 deportation on his release from prison. Grande was the name he used the most, rather than Le Grand. He advertised his detective agency using the name Grande, he got married using the name Grande in 1906 and also wrote his prison memoirs 'Broke on the Wheel' using the name Grande.
The birthplace of Ireland, as I once speculated about the place of birth as 'at sea' would probably have been used to try to get around deportation laws or some similar reason. Before the registration of Aliens Act [IIR the name correctly] Grande's place of birth was usually given as Denmark; Copenhagen specifically in one source.
His last job description in prison records as 'George Jackson' was interpreter.

[m_w_r]

Great research!

Regards,

Mark

[Kattrup]

From 1890-1923, when a national registry was created, Copenhagen police registered all citizens moving to and within the city.

I believe I've found Le Grand's registration:

The registry card was created 17-07-1917.
In translation, the details are:

Name: Grande, Charles.
Occupation: interpreter
Age: 12/3 1856
Place of birth: Ireland
Marital status: married (wife in London)
Residence:
1917 7/7: From London to Meinungsgade 14 4 th [right side] Bidstrup [landlord]
1918 1/5: ditto
1918 10/10: Ryesgade 97, 2. Christensen [landlord]
1920 18/6: Peder Skramsgade 15, 3. Aude [landlord]
1920 5/10: Kronprinsessegade 44A 1 th Mrs. Schwanenflügel [landlord]
1921 1/11: out of registry

The timing, name, occupation, age and marital status all seem to mesh with what is known about Le Grande, as I understand it.

Why would he use an alias, and why claim to be born in Ireland? Maybe to conceal an oldercriminal record, or maybe he assumed London Police would have advised copenhagen police of his arrival, and he wanted to avoid scrutiny?

As for place of birth, I don't know if anything more is known about it except some sources claim it was "at sea".