Arbitrary Selective Rejection and Acceptence of Coincidences

[Chris]

But Swanson and Anderson do indicate when this all happened, especially the latter--in early 1889. there were no more murders thought by the cops to be Jack the Ripper.

Can you quote the words of Anderson's that you think indicate early 1889?

[Chris]

Ah so if Jacob Cohen were Betsy's brother, in family terms it would make Jacob Cohen…well Aaron's step brother?

No, they'd only be step brothers if their parents had married. Jacob would be the brother of Aaron's sister-in-law.

[Batman]

So as to how reliable Swanson and the marginalia and all its contents are concerned is a matter for each individual to decide.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Actually Swanson on the GSG has nothing to do with the marginalia.

Chief Inspector Swanson’s made a summary report of the double murder in which he clearly discusses the GSG with the implications that it was crude attempts to incriminate the Jews. This was an official report at the time. Since Swanson had likely gathered all the relative information his conclusion is a contemporary one. Anything other than that is to say the man was clearly wrong.

[Jeff Leahy]

Still though if we accept that the narrative is still odd...

Warren doesn't want anti-semitic riots. Has the GSG removed. If JtR was a Jew then catching him would likely provoke riots bigger than anything seen before. Pizer was just the tip of a possible iceberg..

I think it can be reasoned that the Police had fears about public unrest at his time. There had been riots in Trafalgar square the year previously and Warren had been involved. Add to that prominent members of the Jewish community denying it might be one of their community. Montagu making large reward offers for information about he suspect eventually around £1500 all together!

Kozminski family go to Anderson about their dangerous family member. Ask for help. Anderson doesn't want Jewish riots. Yet they still have an identity parade for Kozminski. Why? If family members believed he was JtR they would surely have provided sufficient evidence of this? Not just profile. Actually activity. Where is his killing gear etc?.

The Crawford letter is a letter of introduction to a lady who believes someone nearly related to her might be the White Chapel murderer. So I wonder whether the whole family were in agreement?

Its also my personal belief that the information she gave related specifically to the Berner Street incident? The bloody shirt at Batty Street.

And the incident of a woman threatened with a knife in Brick lane..

If Kosminski had been in a Private Asylum then such a stay would have had a time limit and this woman, probably Matilda would have had her family to consider and protect against repercussion. Perhaps she felt she had little hope but must try..The idea to get the man put in 'prison'

Anderson asked Swanson to arrange the ID with this in mind. But it must have soon become obvious that the suspect was insane, ID or no ID.

Thus the solution was a Public Asylum where the suspect would be kept under key 24/7.

Another words they reacted to events as they happened.

I thought the whole point of having a witness to identify a suspect is so that you have witness testimony that is used as evidence at the inquest/trial etc. In short, doesn't this whole process entail a very public court case in the end? So why the identity parade if there was never any intention of a trial?.

Yes I believe at first they intended to get the man in prison, but it soon became apparent that it was not going to happen

Also the stars must have been aligned for Anderson given that the witness decides at the time that they can't testify! A bonus for a trial avoiding scheme!

Somethings up with all of that.

I think Anderson wanted a conviction. Once it was realised that the man was quite clearly insane a plan B was adopted.

Yours Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Un corroborated, qualified opinions of many police officials.

It does humour me Trevor that you think you are in a better position to pass comment on the events of 1888-91 than Chief Inspector Donald S Swanson.

Monty

I am not passing comments on the events of 1888-1891, they are fully documented. But you know where I stand with regards to the marginalia and I do not intend to become embroiled in all of that again.

When you talk about Swanson and what he is supposed to have written, does it stand up to close scrutiny as being accurate? Because others who were equally in the know in 1888 all say different things, with others saying we knew nothing.

Yes, he was put in overall charge and during his time in charge, all material had to go to him. But before it went to him it had to be obtained from other police sources i.e the men on the ground doing the leg work.

Even if the police had received anonymous info via a letter naming a potential suspect. It would have been Swanson who would have had to action other officers to go and carry out investigations into that letter. So others would have been in the know and been in a position to be in the know.

If there had ever been a strong viable suspect, you would have expected them all to be singing from the same song sheet after all they were all batting on the same side were they not?

So as to how reliable Swanson and the marginalia and all its contents are concerned is a matter for each individual to decide.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Monty]

This is the problem with Ripperology to many want to relay too heavily on the un corroborated opinions of many of the police officials.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Un corroborated, qualified opinions of many police officials.

It does humour me Trevor that you think you are in a better position to pass comment on the events of 1888-91 than Chief Inspector Donald S Swanson.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Lawende
He described the man as being of average build and looking rather like a sailor, wearing a pepper-and-salt-coloured loose-fitting jacket, a grey cloth cap with a matching peak, and a reddish neckerchief. Lawende said that the man was aged about 30, with a fair complexion and moustache, being about 5ft 7-8 inches tall. He did not believe he would be able to identify the man again.

Schwartz
Age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

Two different killers with similar looks or one killer with minor witness variation (2 inches in height)? Logic points to them being the same person.

Neither is described as a Jew.

and neither may be the same person !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Swanson describes the motive perfectly well in the contemporary. Why do we need to change it or reject it?

This is the same Swanson trusted for the Kozminski connection. For the marginalia. Yet now we just put that part aside?

Swason should be trusted more in the contemporary 1888 and to a lesser degree in later life into retirement making notes etc. Not the other way around.

Kozminski believers not only need to reject the GSG and Lipski slur to some degree but also now need for Schwartz/Lawende's suspect to suddenly transform into a Jew.

This is the problem with Ripperology to many want to relay too heavily on the un corroborated opinions of many of the police officials.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Still though if we accept that the narrative is still odd...

Warren doesn't want anti-semitic riots. Has the GSG removed. If JtR was a Jew then catching him would likely provoke riots bigger than anything seen before. Pizer was just the tip of a possible iceberg.

Kozminski family go to Anderson about their dangerous family member. Ask for help. Anderson doesn't want Jewish riots. Yet they still have an identity parade for Kozminski. Why? If family members believed he was JtR they would surely have provided sufficient evidence of this? Not just profile. Actually activity. Where is his killing gear etc?

I thought the whole point of having a witness to identify a suspect is so that you have witness testimony that is used as evidence at the inquest/trial etc. In short, doesn't this whole process entail a very public court case in the end? So why the identity parade if there was never any intention of a trial?

Also the stars must have been aligned for Anderson given that the witness decides at the time that they can't testify! A bonus for a trial avoiding scheme!

Somethings up with all of that.

[Batman]

Hi Batman

Anderson says "but when he learned the suspect was a Jew" - in other words, the suspect did not look particularly Jewish.

I must admit that does look like the witness only learned the suspect was a Jew after identification and then the problems with the witness started up upon learning he was a Jew.

[Robert]

Hi Batman

Anderson says "but when he learned the suspect was a Jew" - in other words, the suspect did not look particularly Jewish.

[Jeff Leahy]

I don't believe that Kosminski was JTR. Nevertheless, how would Lawende, or Schwartz for that matter, necessarily know whether the men they saw were Jews or Gentiles? Not all Jews are dark haired and dark-eyed.

Well I have the family photos in front of me on my computer screen. I wouldn't say any of them look particularly Jewish. The young girls are pretty little things who look more like shirley temple than anyone else.

Morris Lubnowski is very smart, high collar black tie a wide collar morning jacket and waist coat. Short trim beard and moustache, Hair shortish parted slightly to one side…i'd describe in B?W as mousey colour, Bright eyes (Possibly blue?)

Matilda later in life is darker, dark curlie hair but you certainly wouldn't say typically Jewish..what ever that means. The Kosminskis came from Poland, so I'd say more polish in appearance

Not that this particularly tells us anything about what Aaron might look like…but I might know a man who can

Yours Jeff

[Batman]

I don't believe that Kosminski was JTR. Nevertheless, how would Lawende, or Schwartz for that matter, necessarily know whether the men they saw were Jews or Gentiles? Not all Jews are dark haired and dark-eyed.

Swanson's witness though won't testify against a fellow Jew. So the witness seems to have been able to note 'Jewish' there because it had an impact on their inability to testify against him.

I think there are witness descriptions of JtR being foreign looking (which seems to be a deliberate supression of the word Jew so as not to start riots etc.)

I tend to think with the descriptions of people living in the East End in 1888 that locals could recognize the difference between a 'foreigners' and native Londoners.

Also the Kozminski turned 'shabby gentile type' requires that he is able to do that in a short period of time after his arrival in England.

Also JtR seems to be able to identify Jews quite well. Lipski to Schwartz. GSG on that street in that doorway of all places. That tells me JtR isn't a 'foreigner' but a local.

[Rosella]

I don't believe that Kosminski was JTR. Nevertheless, how would Lawende, or Schwartz for that matter, necessarily know whether the men they saw were Jews or Gentiles? Not all Jews are dark haired and dark-eyed.

[Jeff Leahy]

Lawende
He described the man as being of average build and looking rather like a sailor, wearing a pepper-and-salt-coloured loose-fitting jacket, a grey cloth cap with a matching peak, and a reddish neckerchief. Lawende said that the man was aged about 30, with a fair complexion and moustache, being about 5ft 7-8 inches tall. He did not believe he would be able to identify the man again.

Schwartz
Age about 30 ht, 5 ft 5 in. comp. fair hair dark, small brown moustache, full face, broad shouldered, dress, dark jacket & trousers black cap with peak, had nothing in his hands.

Two different killers with similar looks or one killer with minor witness variation (2 inches in height)? Logic points to them being the same person.

Neither is described as a Jew.

I agree. Have you seen the photograph of Aaron's Cousin Lubowski?

Yours Jeff