Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[mickreed]

Jari tweets

https://twitter.com/JariLouhelainen

[MrBarnett]

I don't understand. I all happened within one square mile. If you believe JtR was of the area, it's not a stretch.

Hi Sir John,

Take Hanbury Street as an example. Very near an early morning market, directly opposite it in fact, and the hallway apparently often used by homeless people to doss in. The chances of someone being in the hallway or in the street outside, a not insignificant East/West route, were very high. And the yard was a rat trap. Only one way out. If someone had come to the yard door while Jack was mid-rip, the game would have been up.

Assuming Jack picked up Chapman in a major thoroughfare such as Commercial Street, was 29, Hanbury Street the best spot on offer? Or just one that Annie was used to using ?

MrB

This post should be on the thread How Well Did Jack Know The East End.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Well, to be fair he does have some evidence -- he's just greatly overstated how conclusive it is. Poor scholarship is not a good thing, but it doesn't necessarily rise to the level of fraud.

"new potential data about Jack The Ripper" doesn't give you a book deal either.

Did he self published?

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hi Sir John,

Take Hanbury Street as an example. Very near an early morning market, directly opposite it in fact, and the hallway apparently often used by homeless people to doss in. The chances of someone being in the hallway or in the street outside, a not insignificant East/West route, were very high. And the yard was a rat trap. Only one way out. If someone had come to the yard door while Jack was mid-rip, the game would have been up.

Assuming Jack picked up Chapman in a major thoroughfare such as Commercial Street, was 29, Hanbury Street the best spot on offer? Or just one that Annie was used to using ?

MrB

This post should be on the thread How Well Did Jack Know The East End.

as I understand it, after the Nichols murder, the streets became much more quiet for a while in the late night.
I think Chapman was approached differently than Nichols, whom he might have followed for a while, and just attacked her. With Chapman, he probably approached her as a customer and let her choose the place where they won't be disturbed.

I'm currently looking at how the victims were treated. I think Chapman, Eddowes, Kelly were lured (and Tabram, if you believe she's a JtR's victim), while Nichols and Stride were attacked directly.

This said, I'm not certain it is possible for a unique suspect to act that differently.

Anyway, I apologize, these questions must have been debated a thousand times already.

[mickreed]

Carol Mayne (see here http://www.dnaevidence.com.au/Carol%...e%20-%20CV.pdf)

Is reported as saying:

DNA evidence has solved many crimes, and exposed so many wrongful convictions it has changed the debate on capital punishment. Nevertheless, it is not perfect; forensic consultant Dr Carol Mayne says the letters should stand for Do Not Assume because “It is not as infallible as people think”, even from far fresher samples and where the match is to the suspect, not a remote decedent.

http://www.iflscience.com/technology/has-dna-solved-ripper-mystery

A precaution well worth remembering.

[Patrick S]

would the ripper risk his fate on the judgement of a drunk prostitute? Or he would he pick the perfect spot, stalk the spot closely and watch what prostitutes use it or business...then when the chance is right...approach the woman and have her bring him to the spot he's actually chosen

Dear, God. The superhuman, all-seeing, all-knowing, genius Ripper. My favorite.

[Theagenes]

The blue dye then would be indigo. Link

Natural indigo production in 1897 was 19,000 tons but declined to 1,000 tons by 1914.

The first synthesis of indigo was described by Adolf von Baeyer in 1878 (from isatin) and a second synthesis in 1880 (from 2-nitrobenzaldehyde). However, a "a commercially feasible manufacturing process" was not established until 1897.

So while the shawl could have been produced prior to the JTR murders, that natural dye was still being used in 1897 and since Link


cheers, gryff

Well, actually indigo is a related plant, but not quite the same (Indigofera tinctoria). If you read in the link you posted, indigo started replacing woad, then both were replaced by synthetic dyes. But as you said, natural dyes were still being used into the 20th century -- just less commonly.

But the fact that this is woad (Isatis tinctoria) and not true indigo, suggests an earlier date.

[Patrick S]

Sorry to be so secretive, Mr Barnett, but I won´t glean anything more just yet. All in due course, however!

And as you say, it´s the wrong thread anyway.

All the best,
Fisherman

Can't wait. I'll be open minded, as always. Though, I won't be one of your cheerleaders, either, Fish. You seem to mistake anything but unadulterated praise as hate-speech.

[Peter Griffith aka gryff]

Well, actually indigo is a related plant, but not quite the same (Indigofera tinctoria). If you read in the link you posted, indigo started replacing woad, then both were replaced by synthetic dyes. But as you said, natural dyes were still being used into the 20th century -- just less commonly.

But the fact that this is woad (Isatis tinctoria) and not true indigo, suggests an earlier date.

Theagenes from my first link:

The dye chemical extracted from woad is indigo, the same dye extracted from "true indigo", Indigofera tinctoria, but in a lower concentration.

In fact I'm curious about how the nmr spectra told the scientist it was from woad

cheers, gryff

[Tom_Wescott]

Jari tweets

https://twitter.com/JariLouhelainen

But first, he takes a selfie.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[RockySullivan]

Dear, God. The superhuman, all-seeing, all-knowing, genius Ripper. My favorite.

I never said that now patty....what I said I was the ripper planned and stalk. Wouldn't you? I think the idea that the ripper was simply a nutter loose from the asylum makes less sense then a cunning predator who stalked and planned his attack. What you see is a killer who can incapacitate , kill, remove specific organs in the pitch black night, and leave the crime scene unseen. Hardly a looney roaming the streets killing at random and running on pure luck alone. Just the fact that he could remove the organs in minutes says volume about his character.

[dropzone]

A quick look on Thalmann's site shows several "long" shawls like Edwards' with similar patterns and similar dimensions. Take a look this silk shawl (30" x 10") from Spitalfields c 1815 and tell me whether or not Edwards' shawl looks more like this or one of the modern table runners you posted:

http://www.antique-textiles.net/shaw...ds_floral.html

That works, but as a fan of non-commitment and weasel words I prefer calling it "the cloth."

And the ones from mid-19th century and earlier would have had to be natural dyes and would have had to have been kept from getting wet.

Natural dyes can be made fairly colorfast. I was interested when someone mentioned many pages back that water soaking through carried a lot of dye. Not at all colorfast, or it hadn't been washed ever--like the first time through the wash for a pair of old-fashioned, indigo-dyed blue jeans.

As Jeff pointed out, he is the one who started the Edwardian table runner thing in this thread and it was based his recollections of what was told to him, which he admits may have been a faulty recollection.

As I look at more photos, the lining,for instance, is very nice and varied and may suggest its use as a shawl, where both sides are seen. Folks are arguing whether the pattern is painted or printed? Wood-block printing on cloth goes back millenia. However, I wish I could find sharper shots of it online because in the picture below the pattern looks woven, with the warp threads gathered into fringe:

http://www.buryfreepress.co.uk/webimage/1.6286236.1410194771!/image/3119017547.jpg_gen/derivatives/articleImgDeriv_628px/3119017547.jpg

People here are very quick to run with spurious information if backs their position. All I'm asking is that you all utilize the same level of scrutiny on the evidence that supports your arguments as on the evidence that contradicts it.

And quite frankly I don't like being in the position of having to defend Edwards poorly-written tabloid book, but I feel like someone needs to play devil's advocate in this place.

Ain't it painful? I feel fortunate because I don't have a favorite.

We appear to have a piece of material approx eight foot by two.

With hand painted flowers.

Mr Edwards appears to have had it looked at by Sutherby's who have dated it as early nineteenth century probably a Shawl.

Previous wisdom was that the shawl was Screen printed, hence it was previously thought to be Edwardian...

And I vote for "neither," as I said above. Really wish I could get a better look.

The difference between a shawl and a stole is in your soul, but for communicating this specific style you probably want to say "stole".

So you're saying Acting Sergeant Simpson stole a stole? That doesn't flow as well as "stole a shawl."

[MrBarnett]

Rocky,

So to add to his encyclopaedic knowledge of police beats and work routes we must add the bladder and bowel movements of 29 Hanbury Street?

I take it back, he deserves his top hat and silk lined cloak .

MrB

[mickreed]

Theagenes from my first link:



In fact I'm curious about how the nmr spectra told the scientist it was from woad

cheers, gryff

Well, I'm just reading the extracts from the book available on Google Books. It seems as though two different tests are being conflated here. Jari Louhelainen did an absorption test and, according to Edwards, these showed that the blue dye was very similar to indigo, but not to Royal Purple, but the test couldn't determined the chemical composition of the dye.

So they move to NMR which, again according to Edwards, showed a molecule structure more in keeping with natural dyes than synthetic ones. It gets a bit unclear here, but he seems to say that the NMR itself showed the dyes as being very similar to woad, but he could be bringing that in from elsewhere. He's not a good writer.

He then says that the use of a natural dye strongly supports the notion of the shawl being pre-1870. This bit seems to have just been pulled out of the air really.

On the Russian origins, what he has is an apparent statement by the NMR bloke, that the dye structure reminded him of some he'd seen from the St Petersburg region. Edwards gets very excited by this and, implicitly claims this as proof of origin.

Until I get the full book in a week or so, that's all I can say.

[Theagenes]

Well, I'm just reading the extracts from the book available on Google Books. It seems as though two different tests are being conflated here. Jari Louhelainen did an absorption test and, according to Edwards, these showed that the blue dye was very similar to indigo, but not to Royal Purple, but the test couldn't determined the chemical composition of the dye.

So they move to NMR which, again according to Edwards, showed a molecule structure more in keeping with natural dyes than synthetic ones. It gets a bit unclear here, but he seems to say that the NMR itself showed the dyes as being very similar to woad, but he could be bringing that in from elsewhere. He's not a good writer.

He then says that the use of a natural dye strongly supports the notion of the shawl being pre-1870. This bit seems to have just been pulled out of the air really.

On the Russian origins, what he has is an apparent statement by the NMR bloke, that the dye structure reminded him of some he'd seen from the St Petersburg region. Edwards gets very excited by this and, implicitly claims this as proof of origin.

Until I get the full book in a week or so, that's all I can say.

That sums it up that section very well. Just to add, the scientist that carried out the NMR analysis was Fyaz Ismail.