Kosminski case notes;Allegations of threatening behaviour

[Scorpio]

Hi Scorpio
Perhaps they did not. Maybe they only went to the police and told them about the knife incident and the police then made the inference.

But why would it be a foolhardy thing to tell the police there suspicions that there mentally deranged brother was JtR?

He was a burden to them
He was now a threat

and if they beleived (or somehow knew he was JtR) I would think it would be a great relief to them. I am sure they knew he was insane so they probably knew he would wind up in an asylum where he belonged and not on the gallows. And of course they would be doing themselves and society good by getting jack the ripper off the streets.

The police would not betray a confidence, i am sure, but they are accountable to the state, and had the police been at liberty to arrest and charge Aaron, then i suppose they would have done so. The East End was a volatile place and anti semetic behaviour by a minority of its citizens was possible. The Goulston St message, which was the only real piece of evidence found, was wantonly destroyed for such a reason.

[Abby Normal]

That is a very plausible theory. Its quite possible, given the short time that Kozminski was at the workhouse on that occasion, that the whole arrangement was made to place Aaron in an inconspicuous, but controlled environment, to facilitate an ID attempt. Swanson may have implied that the entire arrangement... getting him placed in the workhouse and transported to the Seaside Home for identification was done 'with difficulty'.

Having no hard evidence to arrest him as a result, Swanson was forced to release Aaron into his brother's custody and let the City CID maintain surveillance upon him until the family had finally had enough and let him be committed.

In regards to the threatening his sister with a knife episode...it didn't take much to come under suspicion at that time... just look at Ostrog... especially if you add the 'lunatic' factor to the equation. Rightly or wrongly, the authorities had their 'profile' of the murderer and without hard evidence against anyone, did the next best thing in their minds by locating every man that fit the profile, have him put away or watched until that could be accomplished. Houchin was an H Division physician, deliberately placed where he could process and evaluate the 'lunatics' coming through the system in the aftermath of the murders, in my opinion.

Kozminski was probably one of many 'lunatics' who were under suspicion, watched, institutionalized and even submitted to ID attempts in the months and even years after the height of the murders had ceased. For some reason, he became Swanson's favored suspect and, thus, Anderson's Jack the Ripper.

Hi Hunter
good post.

Another possibility is that the ID took place in between the visits to the workhouse. In this scenario, perhaps while he was at the workhouse the first time the DR/staff hear of the knife incident (which precipitated his family bringing him to the workhouse the first time). They notify police, AK is discharged. The police go back and look at their lists from the previous house to house search and find AK's name and then set up the ID and subsequent ID. In this scenario then the family does not notify the police-its the workhouse- and the ID takes place sometime in between visits to the workhouse.

[Hunter]

Hi Scorpio
In Rob Houses' recent book on AK he believes the most likely scenario is that the ID took place during AK's first visit to the workhouse. But he was only there for several days so I have a little difficulty seeing how his admittance to the workhouse, the staff informing the police of the knife incident, the police coming to the conclusion he could be JtR and an ID would be necessary, Lining up the witness, and conducting the ID (with difficulty) all could have taken place so quickly within several days. For this all to have happened, and the following events (from Swanson) of the subsequent surveillance of AK by the police and his return to the workhouse after the surveillance "with his hands tied behind his back" I think that the police must have been informed of the knife incident BEFORE he was sent to the workhouse (to allow for more time to set up and conduct the ID). And the only way I think they could have been informed before would have been by the family.

That is a very plausible theory. Its quite possible, given the short time that Kozminski was at the workhouse on that occasion, that the whole arrangement was made to place Aaron in an inconspicuous, but controlled environment, to facilitate an ID attempt. Swanson may have implied that the entire arrangement... getting him placed in the workhouse and transported to the Seaside Home for identification was done 'with difficulty'.

Having no hard evidence to arrest him as a result, Swanson was forced to release Aaron into his brother's custody and let the City CID maintain surveillance upon him until the family had finally had enough and let him be committed.

In regards to the threatening his sister with a knife episode...it didn't take much to come under suspicion at that time... just look at Ostrog... especially if you add the 'lunatic' factor to the equation. Rightly or wrongly, the authorities had their 'profile' of the murderer and without hard evidence against anyone, did the next best thing in their minds by locating every man that fit the profile, have him put away or watched until that could be accomplished. Houchin was an H Division physician, deliberately placed where he could process and evaluate the 'lunatics' coming through the system in the aftermath of the murders, in my opinion.

Kozminski was probably one of many 'lunatics' who were under suspicion, watched, institutionalized and even submitted to ID attempts in the months and even years after the height of the murders had ceased. For some reason, he became Swanson's favored suspect and, thus, Anderson's Jack the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

I dont believe the family made any reference to JtR,a foolhardy thing to do under the circumstances.

Hi Scorpio
Perhaps they did not. Maybe they only went to the police and told them about the knife incident and the police then made the inference.

But why would it be a foolhardy thing to tell the police there suspicions that there mentally deranged brother was JtR?

He was a burden to them
He was now a threat

and if they beleived (or somehow knew he was JtR) I would think it would be a great relief to them. I am sure they knew he was insane so they probably knew he would wind up in an asylum where he belonged and not on the gallows. And of course they would be doing themselves and society good by getting jack the ripper off the streets.

[Scorpio]

I will have to wait untill the new book shows up in the stands, 3rd of June or something now. The knife threatening event as catalyst theory for Andersons deep hatred of women claim seems likely.

[Abby Normal]

The knife incident resulting in Aarons first visit to the workhouse on the12th July 1890, and the workhouse staff informing the police, is workable. But the ID is believed to have taken place near to Aarons second visit to the workhouse on 4th Feb 1891. Why would the police wait such a long time, then send Aaron all the way to Brighton. It seems material on how/why Aaron came to the attention of the police is missing.

Hi Scorpio
In Rob Houses' recent book on AK he beleives the most likely scenario is that the ID took place during AK's first visit to the workhouse. But he was only there for several days so I have a little difficulty seeing how his admittance to the workhouse, the staff informing the police of the knife incident, the police coming to the conclusion he could be JtR and an ID would be necessary, Lining up the witness, and conducting the ID (with difficulty) all could have taken place so quickly within several days. For this all to have happened, and the following events (from Swanson) of the subsequent surveillance of AK by the police and his return to the workhouse after the surveillance "with his hands tied behind his back" I think that the police must have been informed of the knife incident BEFORE he was sent to the workhouse (to allow for more time to set up and conduct the ID). And the only way I think they could have been informed before would have been by the family.

[Scorpio]

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

and about he same time....

2. his family notifying police of this incident and perhaps relaying to them their suspicions that he was JtR?

Is this what initially put AK on the police/Anderson radar?

Did the police go back and look at their list of people from the house to house searches and then find AK's name and along with Anderson's pre conceived notion that JtR was a jew decided he was suspect enough to have him watched and then do the identification with Lawende?

I could see how Lawendes response might have been more along the lines of it could be the man i saw but i could not swear to it. Which became in Andersons mind- a positive ID but witness will not testify because AK is a fellow jew of lawende.

One can see how this whole series of events could evolve over time in Anderson's mind to him beleiving that he knew who JtR was when all AK's really guilty of is being a jew, being crazy and threatening his sister with a knife.

The knife incident resulting in Aarons first visit to the workhouse on the12th July 1890, and the workhouse staff informing the police, is workable. But the ID is believed to have taken place near to Aarons second visit to the workhouse on 4th Feb 1891. Why would the police wait such a long time, then send Aaron all the way to Brighton. It seems material on how/why Aaron came to the attention of the police is missing.

[Errata]

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

Well, he was put in the workhouse in '91? If the event led directly to his institutionalization, then there would be no evidence of violent behaviour during the Ripper murders. Which I wouldn't think would particularly raise flags.

If it happened earlier, and he was mad for the five years previous then I can see the question arising. If the guy said "well, he threatened his sister with a knife a few years ago, but we didn't think anything of it at the time" That I could see raising flags.

But then it begs the question why didn't anyone do something at the time? And if it's because everyone thought it was just a one time thing, meaning the family never saw any other displays of violence, then it takes him right back out of being someone known to be violent during the Ripper murders.

I think the only way to see him as violent is to simply look at a list of episodes without any dates or circumstances and assume they all happened around 1888. Which could happen, but who on earth would request such a list, and who would be dumb enough to provide it?

[Errata]

I think that too much is read into Houchin's remark that Aaron Kosminski 'took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister'. After all, he obviously didn't use the knife and it was a mere threat.

Having dealt with dozens and dozens of domestic disputes during my police career I can say that it was quite common for a family member to threaten another family member with a knife during a heated domestic. Siblings appear to be particularly prone to becoming involved in potentially violent disputes. And this appears to have been a 'one-off' otherwise I am sure that repeated incidents of that nature would have been noted.

However, when there are those wishing to invest Kosminski with the dubious accolade of being 'Jack the Ripper' they will inevitably scratch around for any evidence that he could be violent.

Siblings are more prone because adolescent older sisters are the devil. I'm just saying...

[Scorpio]

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

and about he same time....

2. his family notifying police of this incident and perhaps relaying to them their suspicions that he was JtR?

Is this what initially put AK on the police/Anderson radar?

Did the police go back and look at their list of people from the house to house searches and then find AK's name and along with Anderson's pre conceived notion that JtR was a jew decided he was suspect enough to have him watched and then do the identification with Lawende?

I could see how Lawendes response might have been more along the lines of it could be the man i saw but i could not swear to it. Which became in Andersons mind- a positive ID but witness will not testify because AK is a fellow jew of lawende.

One can see how this whole series of events could evolve over time in Anderson's mind to him beleiving that he knew who JtR was when all AK's really guilty of is being a jew, being crazy and threatening his sister with a knife.

I dont believe the family made any reference to JtR,a foolhardy thing to do under the circumstances.

[Abby Normal]

I think that too much is read into Houchin's remark that Aaron Kosminski 'took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister'. After all, he obviously didn't use the knife and it was a mere threat.

Having dealt with dozens and dozens of domestic disputes during my police career I can say that it was quite common for a family member to threaten another family member with a knife during a heated domestic. Siblings appear to be particularly prone to becoming involved in potentially violent disputes. And this appears to have been a 'one-off' otherwise I am sure that repeated incidents of that nature would have been noted.

However, when there are those wishing to invest Kosminski with the dubious accolade of being 'Jack the Ripper' they will inevitably scratch around for any evidence that he could be violent.

I agree.

I also can't help but wonder if this knife incident lead directly to:

1. his family taking him to the workhouse

and about he same time....

2. his family notifying police of this incident and perhaps relaying to them their suspicions that he was JtR?

Is this what initially put AK on the police/Anderson radar?

Did the police go back and look at their list of people from the house to house searches and then find AK's name and along with Anderson's pre conceived notion that JtR was a jew decided he was suspect enough to have him watched and then do the identification with Lawende?

I could see how Lawendes response might have been more along the lines of it could be the man i saw but i could not swear to it. Which became in Andersons mind- a positive ID but witness will not testify because AK is a fellow jew of lawende.

One can see how this whole series of events could evolve over time in Anderson's mind to him beleiving that he knew who JtR was when all AK's really guilty of is being a jew, being crazy and threatening his sister with a knife.

[Scorpio]

No body is denying domestic violence was a common problem, or claiming that it is proof that Aaron " was Jack the Ripper ". But i believe violence in one form or another is a part of any realistic suspects physical and interior world.

[Stewart P Evans]

Too much...

I think that too much is read into Houchin's remark that Aaron Kosminski 'took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister'. After all, he obviously didn't use the knife and it was a mere threat.

Having dealt with dozens and dozens of domestic disputes during my police career I can say that it was quite common for a family member to threaten another family member with a knife during a heated domestic. Siblings appear to be particularly prone to becoming involved in potentially violent disputes. And this appears to have been a 'one-off' otherwise I am sure that repeated incidents of that nature would have been noted.

However, when there are those wishing to invest Kosminski with the dubious accolade of being 'Jack the Ripper' they will inevitably scratch around for any evidence that he could be violent.

[Chris]

I think that, as Roy implies, essentially the poor law authorities had to be involved because they would be financially responsible for the ongoing support of a pauper lunatic. Of course, the actual decision was made by a doctor.

Thinking about it, I was probably wrong in assuming that Jacob Cohen had taken Aaron to the asylum, because Houchin didn't examine Aaron himself until 6 February, two days after his admission. I suppose he would have spoken to Cohen on the same day.

[Errata]

Good evening Errata,

Yes workhouses were the social services of the day and that's exactly how it worked. if you had a family member with mental health problems who needed help and you could not afford a private asylum, you went to your local workhouse. Based on your place of residence you would have that right. As far as I know, you couldn't just show up at the county asylum gate.

Hope this is helpful,

Roy

It's not that I don't believe you, But I don't believe that! It's like someone tailor made a scenario creating a maximum amount of paperwork with a minimum amount of success. I mean, if you couldn't afford a doss, you went to a work house, which could be as often as rotating through every couple of weeks. And every time you go through you fill out all the forms again so there is a constant barrage of the simply poor and their forms and someone said "Hey! let's make these people the arbiters of mental health!"

Not clinic doctors, or hospitals, or the cops, or the clergy, or even some minor functionary at the records offices... no we're gonna make it be the guy who wades through a sea of humanity to get to his desk every morning, and has to wade through the same amount of people on his way out at night. The poor schmuck who one top of his 250 impoverished people he has to dispense with, now has to root out the four actually mentally ill ones, fill out THEIR paperwork, and then presumably hosts them in his office until someone gets around to taking the guy to an asylum.

It's like someone said it out loud as a joke at a gentleman's club, and the people listening were too drunk not to realize the guy was kidding.