Chapman in America and the "ripper" killings there

[Malcolm X]

Good luck with the new biography Helen. It looks like it may be full of information regarding Chapman's evil career, even if it has nothing that deals with the Whitechapel Murders seriously linking him to them.

There are only two things I can think of mentioning to you. One is Charlie Chaplin's story in his autobiography that he once got a glass of water from Chapman in the latter's pub but did not really drink any because (Chaplin claims this) he felt odd about taking it from Chapman.

The second was just an idea I once considered. I recently reviewed a book called THE MURDER OF THE CENTURY: THE GILDED AGE CRIME THAT SCANDALIZED A CITY & SPARKED THE TABLOID WARS by Paul Collins (New York: Crown Publishers, 2011) which deals with the 1897 murder of Willie Guldensuppe, a masseuse, by Martin Thorne and Augusta Nack. Thorne was executed for the killing in 1898, and Nack got a prison term. Guldensuppe was lured to the then Queens town of Woodside (this was the year before the county of Queens became part of the City of Greater New York). There he was stabbed and his body cut up. The body parts were discarded around the city and East River. Thorne was the one who cut up the body, and he was an immigrant (from Poland) and a barber. I thought that somehow elements of his crime might have been confused with the suspicions directed towards Chapman.

Jeff

yes and even the suspect description of the Carrie Brown murder is nothing like Chapman either.

.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hi Jeff

"Hi Helen, Thank you - I stand corrected."

In my next training session I'll get you to spell my name right.

"someone once said his autobiography is a shameless piece of name-dropping."

Did they indeed? Thank you for passing that on, because now I don't feel so guilty. You see, I was raised near Chaplin's birthplace and it was drummed into me that Chaplin was a "local hero" -- you're just not allowed to say anything critical about them!

"two things stands in my mind in favor of his little piece on Chapman. Most people in the 1960s outside of England would not have remembered the "Borough Poisoning Case" of 1897 - 1902. Secondly he associates the incident with a kind of "sixth" sense of his when he felt somethng was wrong - and illustrates it not only with Chapman but with a second really long forgotten 1902 serial murderer Edgar Evans. For name dropping that is stretching it."

Sorry you have lost me, why is "outside of England" significant, please?

Chapman was still sufficiently famous in the sixties in the UK for his waxwork to remain on display Madame Tussaud's until the middle of that decade. I mentioned Edgar Edwards (not Evans) in my book and yes I get the impression he was indeed forgotten.

However, my criticism of Chaplin isn't that he was name-dropping when he mentioned Edwards and Chapman. I don't think he was. No, I believe he was making up stories to "prove" his sixth sense, with the added piquancy that the people he had the "sense" about were multiple murderers.

Pedantry: I don't think Edwards "qualifies" for the epithet "serial murderer" because he killed all three victims together on the same day. His case is quite interesting, actually. He pleaded insanity and was thus fascainted to read about Chapman in the newspapers, to see how he fared with his "not guilty" plea. He never found out, though, he was hanged before Chapman's trial.

Helena

[Mayerling]

[

{BTW masseuse = female. The male is a masseur.}[/QUOTE]

Hi Helen,

Thank you - I stand corrected.

As for Chaplin, someone once said his autobiography is a shameless piece of name-dropping. It is that, but two things stands in my mind in favor of his little piece on Chapman. Most people in the 1960s outside of England would not have remembered the "Borough Poisoning Case" of 1897 - 1902. Secondly he associates the incident with a kind of "sixth" sense of his when he felt somethng was wrong - and illustrates it not only with Chapman but with a second really long forgotten 1902 serial murderer Edgar Evans. For name dropping that is stretching it. He say less about Henri Desire Landru, whose life he made into one of the world's best dark comdies (MONSIEUR VERDOUX) than about those two.

Jeff

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hi Jeff

"Good luck with the new biography Helen."

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

"Charlie Chaplin's story in his autobiography"

Yes, I already have that story in the book! Chaplin, C (2003) My Autobiography Penguin, p344. Although, between me and you, I think Chaplin made it up.

"THE MURDER OF THE CENTURY...1897 murder of Willie Guldensuppe, a masseuse... an immigrant (from Poland) and a barber...might have been confused with the suspicions directed towards Chapman.

Well I never. Maybe the Poles just create a lot of barbers because they like to be well groomed (or are vain lol). But yes, odd coincidence. I don't think that is why Chapman is suspected of American crimes, that was entirely down to Abberline, who had some half baked idea that there was a series of ripper crimes in the USA. I have now put Abberline's name on the book cover, which I redesigned this morning.

Thanks v. much for bringing these to my attention.

Helena

{BTW masseuse = female. The male is a masseur.}

[Mayerling]

Good luck with the new biography Helen. It looks like it may be full of information regarding Chapman's evil career, even if it has nothing that deals with the Whitechapel Murders seriously linking him to them.

There are only two things I can think of mentioning to you. One is Charlie Chaplin's story in his autobiography that he once got a glass of water from Chapman in the latter's pub but did not really drink any because (Chaplin claims this) he felt odd about taking it from Chapman.

The second was just an idea I once considered. I recently reviewed a book called THE MURDER OF THE CENTURY: THE GILDED AGE CRIME THAT SCANDALIZED A CITY & SPARKED THE TABLOID WARS by Paul Collins (New York: Crown Publishers, 2011) which deals with the 1897 murder of Willie Guldensuppe, a masseuse, by Martin Thorne and Augusta Nack. Thorne was executed for the killing in 1898, and Nack got a prison term. Guldensuppe was lured to the then Queens town of Woodside (this was the year before the county of Queens became part of the City of Greater New York). There he was stabbed and his body cut up. The body parts were discarded around the city and East River. Thorne was the one who cut up the body, and he was an immigrant (from Poland) and a barber. I thought that somehow elements of his crime might have been confused with the suspicions directed towards Chapman.

Jeff

[HelenaWojtczak]

Roy Corduroy: "I thought you were questioning the basic premise of whether he ever went to America at all."

No, this was confirmed by the entire Baderski family PLUS Lucy and Chapman are on ships' passenger lists.

"who knows maybe as Stephen suggests he was living at the Lower East Side, Manhattan, where Carrie Brown was murdered."

Yes he could have been but they got to New York three months after she died.

"I've never read any of Gordon's books because they are so roundly dissed here."

I am not in the least surprised. Gordon's writing style is exciting and sensationalist, which keeps the story active and readable, but unfortunately his narrative is semi-fictionalised, which is FINE, so long as you state that clearly on the cover and don't purport to be purely factual.

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

Helena

There were no JTR style murders in the US in the Chapman timescale.

This is a myth which is regularly stated as fact in this benighted field of study.

That is precisely what I have written in my book Stephen. It is listed in the final chapter "Myths about Chapman".

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

Hi Helena

I'd say almost certainly the Lower East Side, New York's Spitalfields

What I mean is, we do not know if he went to New Jersey, or wherever!

Helena

[Stephen Thomas]

Helena

There were no JTR style murders in the US in the Chapman timescale.

This is a myth which is regularly stated as fact in this benighted field of study.

[Roy Corduroy]

All the ships went to New York, so it does not help us one iota to work out where he went once he disembarked.

Oh I see! I thought you were questioning the basic premise of whether he ever went to America at all. In that case, if it is confirmed he went to America, but not confirmed that he was in New Jersey, then who knows, maybe as Stephen suggests he was living at the Lower East Side, Manhattan, where Carrie Brown was murdered.

You may yet turn this all on its head.

I am not the person to ask, or even the person to make a guess. All I have know is what's here on Casebook, the chapter in Sugden, and Natalie's article. As I said, I've never read any of Gordon's books because they are so roundly dissed here.

Roy

[Stephen Thomas]

All the ships went to New York, so it does not help us one iota to work out where he went once he disembarked.

Hi Helena

I'd say almost certainly the Lower East Side, New York's Spitalfields

[HelenaWojtczak]

What about the ship's passenger list?
Roy

All the ships went to New York, so it does not help us one iota to work out where he went once he disembarked.

Helena

[Roy Corduroy]

What about the ship's passenger list? Wasn't he on one? Seems this was discussed and in fact, just discussed again lately here on a thread, with Wolf joining in. Or was it on the other forum. I can't place it. A detailed discussion of just when he went to America.

I'm sure that Wolf Vanderlinden and Gareth Williams and others have an educated opinion on this matter. You might want to find out.

Roy

[Malcolm X]

Thanks Malc. Every book says he went to NJ, and this is repeated on websites and on here and at JtR forums,it never crosses one's mind that it might not be true. I confess I was pretty staggered myself!

i never believed that Chapman killed in America and this i was sure of 3 years ago, but i never would question that he might not even have been there..because you expect this to be accurate.

wouldn't it be amazing to find out where he went and then to discover Ripper murders there too

[HelenaWojtczak]

isn't this amazing, i had always believed everything on Casebook about him, because i had no reason not to ! so where the hell did Chapman go....!!

amazing research well done to you.

it is very bad that this casebook website is hardly ever updated and it hasn't been since i've been around.

Thanks Malc. Every book says he went to NJ, and this is repeated on websites and on here and at JtR forums,it never crosses one's mind that it might not be true. I confess I was pretty staggered myself!