Klosowski's surgical experience

[protohistorian]

I used it first in my edit.

Sorry, Carry (Brown) On...

JM

saw it on john's edit. If that is what it means, go for it, it sounds so much more unpleasant.

[Sam Flynn]

I used ["rat-arsed"] first in my edit

Thank Gawd for that, Jon! I shall be rat-arsed this weekend, of that there is no doubt

[jmenges]

How come you chose the phrase "rat arsed", Dave? (It means "drunk", by the way.)

I used it first in my edit.

Sorry, Carry (Brown) On...

JM

[Sam Flynn]

I have a medical question, because I do not want you to get "rat arsed" whatever that implies.

(It means "drunk", by the way.)

As I read the data posted is my understanding of Chapman's last mentor as Dr. Moshkovski ending in Dec 1886? If that is so, has anybody researched this guy?

Can't find him. The only person I've been able to reliably trace is Moshko Rappaport, and then mainly because so many of his family went on to perish in the Shoah. As to his medical qualifications, I have no idea.

I've no doubt that the others existed, it's just that the ravages of time and the Nazi occupation have obliterated much of the historical records. (As an example, nearly 80% of Zvolen was completely destroyed by the Germans.)

[m_w_r]

I do not want you to get "rat arsed" whatever that implies.

Arses are difficult things, and the things we do with them don't always translate across the Atlantic. Being rat-arsed is being drunk; being half-arsed is being lazy (I think you have this one too); being tight-arsed is being miserly; it goes on.

Keeping the thread on topic, we can speculate that all this nuanced British arse-play may have been a bit much for Klosowski, with his rudimentary medical skills, to have got a hold of.

Warning: getting hold of someone's arse could be a criminal offence.

Regards,

Mark

[protohistorian]

I was hoping to keep this discussion thread focused specifically on his surgical, rather than his military experience, Dave. Let's not branch out into other topics, or we'll end up with "discussion salad" here

Do we have a source for what specifically a junior surgeon is "authorised" to do? An idea of the extent of education perhaps?

[protohistorian]

He never did, CD. Plenty of barber-surgeons, amongst others, fled from Poland at that time - due to economic/political difficulties, or ethnic tensions, back home - and it's quite possible that Klosowski was just another one of those.

I have a medical question, because I do not want you to get "rat arsed" whatever that implies. As I read the data posted is my understanding of Chapman's last mentor as Dr. Moshkovski ending in Dec 1886? If that is so, has anybody researched this guy?

[jmenges]

Hi C.D., Dave, Gareth

What Dave is referring to above is something unsourced in R Michael Gordon's newest book The Poison Murders of JtR where he says that the Polish army came calling in 1886, Klosowski was able to receive a year long extension, and then come draft time in 1887 he fled to London. Implying that his move to London was in a draft-dodging move rather than fleeing from some crime (which Gordon suggests is equally possible as well).

Edit: To make this a bit on-topic, it is suggested in this book that is was his surgical experience which initiated the draft attempt by the Polish govt.

JM

[Sam Flynn]

Did Klosowski ever say why he left Poland since it would see that if would have been easier to gain employment there in the medical field as opposed to London where he couldn't speak the language that well.

He never did, CD. Plenty of barber-surgeons, amongst others, fled from Poland at that time - due to economic/political difficulties, or ethnic tensions, back home - and it's quite possible that Klosowski was just another one of those.

[protohistorian]

Did Klosowski ever say why he left Poland since it would see that if would have been easier to gain employment there in the medical field as opposed to London where he couldn't speak the language that well.

c.d.

I do not know. I rather suspect that if he did, it was a self glorifying lie.

[Sam Flynn]

John had told me that Klosowski had filed for an extension before reporting for the draft...

I was hoping to keep this discussion thread focused specifically on his surgical, rather than his military experience, Dave. Let's not branch out into other topics, or we'll end up with "discussion salad" here

[c.d.]

Did Klosowski ever say why he left Poland since it would see that if would have been easier to gain employment there in the medical field as opposed to London where he couldn't speak the language that well.

c.d.

[protohistorian]

As the "Thought Experiment" thread was covering so many different topics, I thought I'd better start another to cover Klosowski's surgical experience specifically. From HL Adam's book, we find that Klosowski had a number of documents found in his possession after his arrest, many of them referring to his training back in Poland. The relevant information, in terms of names and dates, I've summarised below:

1. Receipt for 1 ruble (then approx 60 US cents?) paid to the Treasurer of the Society of Surgeons of the town of Radom on behalf of Klosowski. Signed by "N. Brodnitski", dated 1882.

2. A reference confirming the above, signed "Brodinski" [sic - note different spelling], Chief of the Society, this time dated 1885.

3. A receipt from the Surgical Society "for entering the name of Severin Klosowski, two rubles". (Undated?)

4. Apprenticed for approx 4.5 years to Moskho Rappaport. Certificate issued by Rappaport, "Senior Surgeon and proprietor of the surgery in the village of Zvolen", dated Jun 1885.

5. Reference supporting the above, confirming Klosowski's apprenticeship to Rappaport, and what he did (I quote: "i.e. cupping by means of glasses, leeches and other assistance in the science of surgery"). Signed by O.P. Olstetski, "medical practitioner in the village of Zvolen", October 1885.

6. A certificate confirming that, from Oct 1st 1885 to January 1st 1886, Klosowski received instruction in "practical surgery" at Praga Hospital, Warsaw, and attesting to his good conduct. Signed "Krynick", Senior Surgeon. Also, a note of confirmation [apparently a routine character reference required for to apply to the University of Warsaw] from "Kasievitz", Deputy at the Department of the Chief of Police, counter-signed "A. Darenskov" (Manager). These documents dated April 29th, 1886

7. Note confirming that Klosowski served as surgical assistant to "D. Moshkovski", between January 20th 1886 to November 16th 1886, and signed by Moshkovski.

8. Note certifying that Klosowski had been employed as assistant surgeon to C.F. Olshanksi, Town of Praga, between August 1885 and February 1886. Signed by Olshanski.

9. Petition from Klosowski, dated December 1886, applying to sit a "Junior Surgeon's" exam at Warsaw University, and enclosing the required documents - presumably including aforementioned references.

10. Letter from the Ministry of the Interior, stating that they had no objection to Klosowski's request to oppose his receiving the degree of "Junior Surgeon", and that the necessary fees had been paid. Signed Dr M. Oreszaief (Collegiate Councillor) and A. Pominski (Secretary). Dated 5th December 1886.

11. Receipt from Warsaw Society of Assistant Surgeons, confirming that Klosowski had paid "hospital fees" of 4 rubles per month, and was paid up until 3rd March 1887. Signed "Cobalski" (Senior Surgeon), and dated 28th February 1887.


... I hope the above are of interest.

John had told me that Klosowski had filed for an extension before reporting for the draft, do we have the specific circumstances of that? I would think he would require someones signature? Perhaps to avoid the draft entirely he would need a signature, and failing to attain it, obsconded to England. Thanks for the help, Respectfully

[Sam Flynn]

As the "Thought Experiment" thread was covering so many different topics, I thought I'd better start another to cover Klosowski's surgical experience specifically. From HL Adam's book, we find that Klosowski had a number of documents found in his possession after his arrest, many of them referring to his training back in Poland. The relevant information, in terms of names and dates, I've summarised below:

1. Receipt for 1 ruble (then approx 60 US cents?) paid to the Treasurer of the Society of Surgeons of the town of Radom on behalf of Klosowski. Signed by "N. Brodnitski", dated 1882.

2. A reference confirming the above, signed "Brodinski" [sic - note different spelling], Chief of the Society, this time dated 1885.

3. A receipt from the Surgical Society "for entering the name of Severin Klosowski, two rubles". (Undated?)

4. Apprenticed for approx 4.5 years to Moskho Rappaport. Certificate issued by Rappaport, "Senior Surgeon and proprietor of the surgery in the village of Zvolen", dated Jun 1885.

5. Reference supporting the above, confirming Klosowski's apprenticeship to Rappaport, and what he did (I quote: "i.e. cupping by means of glasses, leeches and other assistance in the science of surgery"). Signed by O.P. Olstetski, "medical practitioner in the village of Zvolen", October 1885.

6. A certificate confirming that, from Oct 1st 1885 to January 1st 1886, Klosowski received instruction in "practical surgery" at Praga Hospital, Warsaw, and attesting to his good conduct. Signed "Krynick", Senior Surgeon. Also, a note of confirmation [apparently a routine character reference required for to apply to the University of Warsaw] from "Kasievitz", Deputy at the Department of the Chief of Police, counter-signed "A. Darenskov" (Manager). These documents dated April 29th, 1886

7. Note confirming that Klosowski served as surgical assistant to "D. Moshkovski", between January 20th 1886 to November 16th 1886, and signed by Moshkovski.

8. Note certifying that Klosowski had been employed as assistant surgeon to C.F. Olshanksi, Town of Praga, between August 1885 and February 1886. Signed by Olshanski.

9. Petition from Klosowski, dated December 1886, applying to sit a "Junior Surgeon's" exam at Warsaw University, and enclosing the required documents - presumably including aforementioned references.

10. Letter from the Ministry of the Interior, stating that they had no objection to Klosowski's request to oppose his receiving the degree of "Junior Surgeon", and that the necessary fees had been paid. Signed Dr M. Oreszaief (Collegiate Councillor) and A. Pominski (Secretary). Dated 5th December 1886.

11. Receipt from Warsaw Society of Assistant Surgeons, confirming that Klosowski had paid "hospital fees" of 4 rubles per month, and was paid up until 3rd March 1887. Signed "Cobalski" (Senior Surgeon), and dated 28th February 1887.


... I hope the above are of interest.