Klosowski's surgical experience

[Natalie Severn]

By the way, I summarised all Klosowski's relevant references at the start of this thread.

Thankyou Sam,for posting these.Do you know whether there is a biography of Chapman,and if so what the title is?
Thanks
Nats

[protohistorian]

I don't mean to throw cold water on this thread but I seem to have lost track of its purpose. Is it merely to get an idea of Klosowski's history and experience or is some point trying to be made as to whether he could have performed the murders. That's a serious question. I am not being a smart ass, well at least not here.

By the way do they say smart arse in England? Just doesn't sound right to me.

c.d.

We are attempting to arrive at a common understanding of Chapmans background. Any attempt to understand his later actions, both real and alleged turn on it.

[Sam Flynn]

Not if he could not procure specious documents to back it up.

He had some scribbled affidavits from small-town doctors, Dave - all of them from before age 21. You'd have thought that he'd have acquired somewhat grander, and more recent, fake credentials had he felt the desire to do so. As it is, arguably the most impressive chitty found in his possession related to permission to enter in the degree of Junior Surgeon - NB: not even a certificate to the effect that he'd succeeded!

[c.d.]

I don't mean to throw cold water on this thread but I seem to have lost track of its purpose. Is it merely to get an idea of Klosowski's history and experience or is some point trying to be made as to whether he could have performed the murders. That's a serious question. I am not being a smart ass, well at least not here.

By the way do they say smart arse in England? Just doesn't sound right to me.

c.d.

[protohistorian]

By the 1850's in England steps were taken to "certify" all medical practioners, certainly by 1880 in Poland there was a similar phase. The Polish were operationg almost verbatim from the English model.

Spurious was Adam's word.

[protohistorian]

What documentation would one expect from a small-town surgeon and various village doctors? I baulk at the word "spurious", but we're certainly not talking about the equivalent of High-School or Baccalaureate Certificates here.

By the 1850's in England steps were taken to "certify" all medical practioners, certainly by 1880 in Poland there was a similar phase. The Polish were operationg almost verbatim from the English model.

[Sam Flynn]

That being said, isn't Felscher a step up.

Only in the sense that "First-Aid man" would be today. Like I said, my great-grandfather seems to have been very much the feldscher type, although he was only affiliated to the Order of St John and had no title within that organisation apart from "Serving Brother".

[m_w_r]

The next big interest was having a pub to run the last of which ,"The Monument" , in Union Street ,Southwark, close to Southwark Bridge ,was where he was caught after having just poisoned his pretty young wife of 18 years age,Mary Marsh.

Close, but no cigar, Norma. It was the Crown, on Borough High Street, and his wife was Maud Marsh.

Regards,

Mark

[protohistorian]

There is nothing in Klosowski's biography that suggests he wanted to be anything loftier than a feldscher - despite his tendency to brag and dissemble about other things, he's not on record as having lied about that. One would think that a man like Klosowski, if he indeed suffered from a "failed doctor" complex, would have gone about boasting of medical qualifications he never had. But he never did.

Not if he could not procure specious documents to back it up.

[Sam Flynn]

I am not entirely sure he didn't. Adams notes that the sort of "documentation" Chapman carried was of the"spurious" sort.

What documentation would one expect from a small-town surgeon and various village doctors? I baulk at the word "spurious", but we're certainly not talking about the equivalent of High-School or Baccalaureate Certificates here.

[protohistorian]

Such is the nature of references, Nats - although I don't doubt that Klosowski gave good service as an apprentice. Indeed, his other referees seemed to confirm this.

The crux of the matter is what that "good service" actually entailed. The only - emphasise, ONLY - specifics we have is that Klosowski had experience at cupping and leeching.

That being said, isn't Felscher a step up. I would not expect an earned one either. We moderns call it lying, but if the liar believes it it is meglomania.

[Natalie Severn]

There is nothing in Klosowski's biography that suggests he wanted to be anything loftier than a feldscher - despite his tendency to brag and dissemble about other things, he's not on record as having lied about that. One would think that a man like Klosowski, if he indeed suffered from a "failed doctor" complex, would have gone about boasting of medical qualifications he never had. But he never did.

That seems to have been the case Sam.In fact he seems to have had a head for business,having got his own barber shop within five or six months of being here[some time in 1887----before the beginning of December [re Post Office Directory].Levisohn reported him with another shop in the Whitehart basement by 1890.
I have gone into it a bit since last posting and a Feldscher translates as "an assistant surgeon".
Whatever,he made a huge success of one particular barber shop he opened in Hastings.His "wife" played the piano and sang with him,while he shaved the customers.Apparently people came pouring in from everywhere to enjoy the "musical shaves'. He bought a beautiful boat with the profits and I think that must have been when he acquired his P and O ripper type "cap'. The next big interest was having a pub to run the last of which ,"The Monument" , in Union Street ,Southwark, close to Southwark Bridge ,was where he was caught after having just poisoned his pretty young wife of 18 years age,Mary Marsh.
He was restless, forever changing jobs,wives whatever.Never stayed with anything or anyone for long.
Before you could say," Jack the Ripper" he had moved on and the whole thing became "so last week"-like everything else in his life!

[Sam Flynn]

References

By the way, I summarised all Klosowski's relevant references at the start of this thread.

[protohistorian]

There is nothing in Klosowski's biography that suggests he wanted to be anything loftier than a feldscher - despite his tendency to brag and dissemble about other things, he's not on record as having lied about that. One would think that a man like Klosowski, if he indeed suffered from a "failed doctor" complex, would have gone about boasting of medical qualifications he never had. But he never did.

I am not entirely sure he didn't. Adams notes that the sort of "documentation" Chapman carried was of the"spurious" sort. We need to effort the Praga hospital records for 1886. This is the time he enlisted in the russian army, and he inexplicably leaves a post of assisstant surgeon. Something happened that was severe in his own mind. I am not sure he had any qualifications. He carried alot of self gratifying documents, not alot of official documents.

[Sam Flynn]

Rappaport rated him actually.The reference from Rappaport after the five year apprenticeship with him finished was very good.

Such is the nature of references, Nats - although I don't doubt that Klosowski gave good service as an apprentice. Indeed, his other referees seemed to confirm this.

The crux of the matter is what that "good service" actually entailed. The only - emphasise, ONLY - specifics we have is that Klosowski had experience at cupping and leeching.