Klosowski's surgical experience

[protohistorian]

Did they take on pupils who'd only attended a primary school, though, Nats?

I'd be very wary of making comparisons with the British system of medical training. To take a deliberate extreme for the purpose of illustration, would we be having this discussion if Klosowski had spent 6 years studying "with zeal" the art of voodoo in Port-au-Prince?

Maybe if hookers started showing up with shruken heads?

[protohistorian]

So we have Chapman leaving Praga in less than 6 months for what he ostencibly percieved as the better conditions of the russian army?

Sam I started a thread on Praga and the army, between you and nats you have done a remarkable job bringing me up to speed Thank You very much. Would Klosowski have gotten feedback through the hospital that he was no longer welcome?

[Sam Flynn]

Hospital work was compulsory.If you wished to stay at the level of a "Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries",which was the qualification ,you needed only do a hospital training of 6 months.

Did they take on pupils who'd only attended a primary school, though, Nats?

I'd be very wary of making comparisons with the British system of medical training. To take a deliberate extreme for the purpose of illustration, would we be having this discussion if Klosowski had spent 6 years studying "with zeal" the art of voodoo in Port-au-Prince?

[protohistorian]

Hospital work was compulsory.If you wished to stay at the level of a "Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries",which was the qualification ,you needed only do a hospital training of 6 months.If you wanted to gain Membership of The Royal College of Surgeons, you had to take a year"s hospital training.

Cheers

So we have Chapman leaving Praga in less than 6 months for what he ostencibly percieved as the better conditions of the russian army?

[Sam Flynn]

I might have know Mark! He moved from the Monument,where he had grown tired of Bessie Taylor and poisoned her in February 1901.When 18 year old Maud Marsh came to work as a barmaid in The Monument in the August of 1901 ,he took up with her.went through another bogus marriage and had moved on to The Crown before Christmas! He"s moving back East you see----can"t stay away!

Before anyone responds to that, I'm sure tongue-in-cheek, post from Natalie, please note the subject of this thread is rather specific to "Klosowski's Surgical Experience". I'd be grateful if we kept it that way - there have been plenty of other Klosowski/Chapman threads that have sprung up in recent weeks where speculation about his subsequent career may be discussed more appropriately.

To be ultra-picky, this discussion isn't even about Chapman as such, for the period relevant to this thread happened some years before he changed his name!

[protohistorian]

Not at all, Nats.

I merely reflect the facts - Rappaport was a village surgeon in a logging town in late 1870s Poland. Beyond that, Klosowski goes to work in a Jewish suburb of Warsaw, and attends a brief course at the Praga Hospital, doing heaven-knows what. Whatever it was, he could not have had anything like the education that a 21-year-old prospective medic from Britain would have enjoyed during that era.

He would not even have had the education of better-off Poles (you mentioned Curie earlier), come to that. Indeed, apart from his apprenticeship with Rappaport, Klosowski only admits to a primary school education anyway. Hardly the sort of person one would expect to have thrived in, or even be admitted to, a truly academic medical course.

I am not mad at you Sam, I think you are a rockstar!

[Natalie Severn]

Thank You. I am correct in understanding that this last stage came with some sort of certification?

Hospital work was compulsory.If you wished to stay at the level of a "Licentiate of the Society of Apothecaries",which was the qualification ,you needed only do a hospital training of 6 months.If you wanted to gain Membership of The Royal College of Surgeons, you had to take a year"s hospital training.

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

......steady on Sam.

Not at all, Nats.

I merely reflect the facts - Rappaport was a village surgeon in a logging town in late 1870s Poland. Beyond that, Klosowski goes to work in a Jewish suburb of Warsaw, and attends a brief course at the Praga Hospital, doing heaven-knows what. Whatever it was, he could not have had anything like the education that a 21-year-old prospective medic from Britain would have enjoyed during that era.

He would not even have had the education of better-off Poles (you mentioned Curie earlier), come to that. Indeed, apart from his apprenticeship with Rappaport, Klosowski only admits to a primary school education anyway. Hardly the sort of person one would expect to have thrived in, or even be admitted to, a truly academic medical course.

[Natalie Severn]

Close, but no cigar, Norma. It was the Crown, on Borough High Street, and his wife was Maud Marsh.

Regards,

Mark

I might have know Mark! He moved from the Monument,where he had grown tired of Bessie Taylor and poisoned her in February 1901.When 18 year old Maud Marsh came to work as a barmaid in The Monument in the August of 1901 ,he took up with her.went through another bogus marriage and had moved on to The Crown before Christmas! He"s moving back East you see----can"t stay away!

[protohistorian]

......steady on Sam.I have just done an in depth study of how young men went about becoming surgeons here.Certainly up to the mid 19th century that was EXACTLY what happened here.A FIVE year apprenticeship [14 years + or 15 years to 19 or 20,followed by an "approach" to a hospital to undertake a short practical course in surgery.A student wouldnt even be permitted to sit the examination for the next stage unless he had served the five year apprenticeship.Much of which had indeed been cupping and leeching.But obstetrics especially concerning difficult confinements which a midwife couldnt handle , were also a big part of local doctor"s work and the apprentice would assist at these too .If the Royal College of Surgeons hospital accepted you for training this was just the preliminary .After the short practical hospital course you were a qualified "Apothecary"[helpful if you were to become a poisoner] but to progress further the minimum qualification from the hospital course enabled you to continue.

Thank You. I am correct in understanding that this last stage came with some sort of certification?

[Natalie Severn]

He had some scribbled affidavits from small-town doctors, Dave - all of them from before age 21. You'd have thought that he'd have acquired somewhat grander, and more recent, fake credentials had he felt the desire to do so. As it is, arguably the most impressive chitty found in his possession related to permission to enter in the degree of Junior Surgeon - NB: not even a certificate to the effect that he'd succeeded!

......steady on Sam.I have just done an in depth study of how young men went about becoming surgeons here.Certainly up to the mid 19th century that was EXACTLY what happened here.A FIVE year apprenticeship [14 years + or 15 years to 19 or 20,followed by an "approach" to a hospital to undertake a short practical course in surgery.A student wouldnt even be permitted to sit the examination for the next stage unless he had served the five year apprenticeship.Much of which had indeed been cupping and leeching.But obstetrics especially concerning difficult confinements which a midwife couldnt handle , were also a big part of local doctor"s work and the apprentice would assist at these too .If the Royal College of Surgeons hospital accepted you for training this was just the preliminary .After the short practical hospital course you were a qualified "Apothecary"[helpful if you were to become a poisoner] but to progress further the minimum qualification from the hospital course enabled you to continue.

[Sam Flynn]

Thankyou Sam,for posting these.Do you know whether there is a biography of Chapman,and if so what the title is?

Hi Nats,

As Stewart has pointed out, such a book doesn't exist, unfortunately.

[protohistorian]

He had some scribbled affidavits from small-town doctors, Dave - all of them from before age 21. You'd have thought that he'd have acquired somewhat grander, and more recent, fake credentials had he felt the desire to do so. As it is, arguably the most impressive chitty found in his possession related to permission to enter in the degree of Junior Surgeon - NB: not even a certificate to the effect that he'd succeeded!

A meglomaniac would only accrue what would exist beyond validation. The point of having certificates is to bolster you, and claiming to much is varifiable, a real delusion killer.

[Sam Flynn]

I don't mean to throw cold water on this thread but I seem to have lost track of its purpose. Is it merely to get an idea of Klosowski's history and experience

Precisely - and only - the latter, CD. Just a dispassionate look at what his medical/surgical experience actually comprised.

By the way do they say smart arse in England?

Indeed, and in other parts of the UK too! Here, a "smart ASS" would be a performing circus beast, or at least a paradox - "ass" meaning "stupid person", rather than "bottom", in the UK. We're fortunate in that we can differentiate between the sounds of the two words... especially handy when it comes to pointing out certain beasts of burden to kids at the pets' zoo

[protohistorian]

He had some scribbled affidavits from small-town doctors, Dave - all of them from before age 21. You'd have thought that he'd have acquired somewhat grander, and more recent, fake credentials had he felt the desire to do so. As it is, arguably the most impressive chitty found in his possession related to permission to enter in the degree of Junior Surgeon - NB: not even a certificate to the effect that he'd succeeded!

I think he was faking the funk (lying) from a position of self delusion. In his mind he was Albert Switzer, He as much as said DR.'s were idiots to Maud Marshes sister (Adams p.38)