Hutchinson and Blotchy

[Abby Normal]

i've never really understood the suspicions against hutch, the basis of which seem to be that he gave a very detailed description of a man seen with kelly. I lean towards hutch being accurate and Aman as the killer (and JtR of course)

of course you do. because you think that aman was bury!!!

[Abby Normal]

Hi George,

Was it raining constantly? I know it was raining around 1am and 3am. If it was then aye, something is off there.

According to Mary Cox, Mary was "very intoxicated" around midnight; but according to Hutchinson, Mary didn't seem drunk by 2am. I struggle to reconcile these statements also. Blotchy has beer, on the balance of probability I would say Mary had some of it. I can't see how she transcends from very intoxicated to not drunk in the space of two hours, particularly when there's a good chance she had more to drink during that period.

But, as said, I think Hutchinson probably was there that night simply because in the event the man seen loitering wasn't him, the correct man could have come forward at some point. If Hutchinson's presence was purely innocent, then I would estimate he gave his description for the resulting money involved: I'd imagine petty criminals do their best to look completely innocuous prior to a crime in order for the victim to not suspect what is coming, as opposed to getting in the victim's face and being confrontational well in advance of any planned crime.

And, I'm not convinced Mary went back out of her lodgings after midnight. There is good evidence there to suggest the agreement with Blotchy was more than a quick business proposition: the ale taken back, the singing for around an hour after shutting the door.

agree!

[Abby Normal]

I personally don't think the length of time to come forward is suspicious, experience tells us that does happen often.

But, there is known evidence which is at odds with Hutchinson's statement. According to Mary Cox, she was very intoxicated at midnight, and other statements from people who saw her in the hour leading to midnight have Mary as drunk also. Blotchy has ale, I'd imagine Mary has some of that. How does she transcend to not drunk in the space of two hours?

because " tipsey" covers all the bases. hutch was loitering for sure but i have doubts he actually ever saw her/spoke to her.

[Abby Normal]

What I believe makes him suspicious is that he actually places himself inside Miller's Court, outside Kelly's door in a statement. Not just loitering across the street. He may have been alibiing himself against the unknown or Sarah Lewis since it took him so long to come forward.

bingo! i compared this to your richardson adding to his story of sitting on the steps cutting his shoe on the other thread, before i saw this lol

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

Was it raining constantly? I know it was raining around 1am and 3am. If it was then aye, something is off there.

Hi Mac,

I can't answer your question from memory. It was Fisherman's dissertation. I just wish I could find it.

Cheers, George

[Fleetwood Mac]

What I believe makes him suspicious is that he actually places himself inside Miller's Court, outside Kelly's door in a statement. Not just loitering across the street. He may have been alibiing himself against the unknown or Sarah Lewis since it took him so long to come forward.

I personally don't think the length of time to come forward is suspicious, experience tells us that does happen often.

But, there is known evidence which is at odds with Hutchinson's statement. According to Mary Cox, she was very intoxicated at midnight, and other statements from people who saw her in the hour leading to midnight have Mary as drunk also. Blotchy has ale, I'd imagine Mary has some of that. How does she transcend to not drunk in the space of two hours?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Mac,

There is a dissertation by Christer Holgrem (Fisherman) where he postulates that Hutchinson's story may have been substantially correct but on a different night. He points out that it was raining on the night of the murder but MJK and Aman choose to stand outside the entrance to Millers Court rather that sheltering just inside. His reasoning was far more substantial than just this, but I can't find the reference at present.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

Was it raining constantly? I know it was raining around 1am and 3am. If it was then aye, something is off there.

According to Mary Cox, Mary was "very intoxicated" around midnight; but according to Hutchinson, Mary didn't seem drunk by 2am. I struggle to reconcile these statements also. Blotchy has beer, on the balance of probability I would say Mary had some of it. I can't see how she transcends from very intoxicated to not drunk in the space of two hours, particularly when there's a good chance she had more to drink during that period.

But, as said, I think Hutchinson probably was there that night simply because in the event the man seen loitering wasn't him, the correct man could have come forward at some point. If Hutchinson's presence was purely innocent, then I would estimate he gave his description for the resulting money involved: I'd imagine petty criminals do their best to look completely innocuous prior to a crime in order for the victim to not suspect what is coming, as opposed to getting in the victim's face and being confrontational well in advance of any planned crime.

And, I'm not convinced Mary went back out of her lodgings after midnight. There is good evidence there to suggest the agreement with Blotchy was more than a quick business proposition: the ale taken back, the singing for around an hour after shutting the door.

[Herlock Sholmes]

you know, i don't think i ever seen a reference to him having an accent (i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong). you would think the dundee newspapers might have picked up on it at the trial. perhaps the school he went to cracked down hard on provincial accents.

Maybe Wulf.

I did make a speculative suggestion a few years ago but I can’t recall if I’ve mentioned it since you’ve been posting on here? It was when I was thinking about Eddowes allegedly saying that she knew who the ripper was I thought that if she did have suspicions it might have been about someone that she’d gotten to know a bit better than most people that she’d known. She might have been in a pub and recognised Bury’s Black Country accent (as she was a Black Country girl herself of course) This might have led to Bury becoming either a regular client or just a bloke that she met up with regularly as two strangers from the same place can. Pure speculation of course.

I even considered the name Frank Carter - wasn’t that the name on a pawn ticket that she’d had on her? Could Carter have been a good false name for a man who made a living from the back of a cart?

[Aethelwulf]

And would Aman have had a Stourbridge accent do you think Wulf?

you know, i don't think i ever seen a reference to him having an accent (i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong). you would think the dundee newspapers might have picked up on it at the trial. perhaps the school he went to cracked down hard on provincial accents.

[The Macdonald Triad]

i've never really understood the suspicions against hutch, the basis of which seem to be that he gave a very detailed description of a man seen with kelly. I lean towards hutch being accurate and Aman as the killer (and JtR of course)

What I believe makes him suspicious is that he actually places himself inside Miller's Court, outside Kelly's door in a statement. Not just loitering across the street. He may have been alibiing himself against the unknown or Sarah Lewis since it took him so long to come forward.

[GBinOz]

Some people do have an eye for detail and/or a photographic memory and so it's not impossible he could have remembered the level of detail. But, the idea he would have looked this man up and down for no particular reason other than he looked out of place, seems implausible to me. Unless of course he was planning to mug him, which would give him good reason to analyse his person. Still, I'm not convinced that would have necessitated 'stooping' to look at the man's face.

I'm not convinced with the red handkerchief, would he have been able to see it was red from a distance in the dark? And, I believe Mary was concerned about the Whitechapel Murderer and asked Barnett to read the articles for her: presumably she would have asked the man what was in his parcel prior to any agreement.

Hutchinson's man does appear to be a creation of a number of previous suspect sightings: e.g. Lawende's man and PC Smith's man.

On balance, I think there is sufficient to cast at least a small portion of doubt upon his statement.

Hi Mac,

There is a dissertation by Christer Holgrem (Fisherman) where he postulates that Hutchinson's story may have been substantially correct but on a different night. He points out that it was raining on the night of the murder but MJK and Aman choose to stand outside the entrance to Millers Court rather that sheltering just inside. His reasoning was far more substantial than just this, but I can't find the reference at present.

Cheers, George

[Fleetwood Mac]

i've never really understood the suspicions against hutch, the basis of which seem to be that he gave a very detailed description of a man seen with kelly. I lean towards hutch being accurate and Aman as the killer (and JtR of course)

Some people do have an eye for detail and/or a photographic memory and so it's not impossible he could have remembered the level of detail. But, the idea he would have looked this man up and down for no particular reason other than he looked out of place, seems implausible to me. Unless of course he was planning to mug him, which would give him good reason to analyse his person. Still, I'm not convinced that would have necessitated 'stooping' to look at the man's face.

I'm not convinced with the red handkerchief, would he have been able to see it was red from a distance in the dark? And, I believe Mary was concerned about the Whitechapel Murderer and asked Barnett to read the articles for her: presumably she would have asked the man what was in his parcel prior to any agreement.

Hutchinson's man does appear to be a creation of a number of previous suspect sightings: e.g. Lawende's man and PC Smith's man.

On balance, I think there is sufficient to cast at least a small portion of doubt upon his statement.

[Herlock Sholmes]

i've never really understood the suspicions against hutch, the basis of which seem to be that he gave a very detailed description of a man seen with kelly. I lean towards hutch being accurate and Aman as the killer (and JtR of course)

And would Aman have had a Stourbridge accent do you think Wulf?

[Aethelwulf]

What is the prospect of George Hutchinson and Blotchy being the same man? Has this been explored?

I tend to think Hutchinson was there that night, solely on the basis that in the event he wasn't the man seen loitering, another man could have come forward and so leaving Hutchinson in a boatload of bother.

I have in my mind a scenario (admittedly an unlikely scenario) where Dr Bond was correct and Mary Kelly was killed between 1am and 2am in the morning, and the man seen loitering by Sarah Kennedy was the murderer (after the event) who was looking for the right time (no one walking up or down the street) to exit Miller's Court.

There is an apparent flaw in the logic in that Hutchinson matching the description of Blotchy would have seemingly begged questions of him, but what if Hutchinson felt it was only a matter of time anyway given the Victoria Home was close by.

I can't find any description of Hutchinson beyond: "of military appearance".

'Just wondered whether or not this proposition can be wholly discounted.

i've never really understood the suspicions against hutch, the basis of which seem to be that he gave a very detailed description of a man seen with kelly. I lean towards hutch being accurate and Aman as the killer (and JtR of course)

[Fleetwood Mac]

What is the prospect of George Hutchinson and Blotchy being the same man? Has this been explored?

I tend to think Hutchinson was there that night, solely on the basis that in the event he wasn't the man seen loitering, another man could have come forward and so leaving Hutchinson in a boatload of bother.

I have in my mind a scenario (admittedly an unlikely scenario) where Dr Bond was correct and Mary Kelly was killed between 1am and 2am in the morning, and the man seen loitering by Sarah Kennedy was the murderer (after the event) who was looking for the right time (no one walking up or down the street) to exit Miller's Court.

There is an apparent flaw in the logic in that Hutchinson matching the description of Blotchy would have seemingly begged questions of him, but what if Hutchinson felt it was only a matter of time anyway given the Victoria Home was close by.

I can't find any description of Hutchinson beyond: "of military appearance".

'Just wondered whether or not this proposition can be wholly discounted.