George William Topping Hutchinson Records

[Marlowe]

Mal,

Go to the "Hutch in the 1911 Census?", and go to post 73.

Sam Flynn broke apart the three witness signatures that, at first glance, look so different from each other. But, by breaking them apart, he demonstrated that all three were made by the same hand.

However, when Toppy's signature is added to the list, some differences appear...in my opinion.

So, I believe that the witness DID sign all three pages, but whether or not that witness was Toppy is still debatable.

Marlowe

[The Good Michael]

malcolm,

You're falling for tha BS that was thrown around last time. A document examiner is useful when detecting forgeries. In the case of looking at normal signatures, Sam was as good an expert as any, as are you and I. If we have reason to believe someone was purposefully disguising signatures so that they could trick us 120 years in the future, by all means bring someone in. Until then, my eyes are as good as any others.

Mike

[Malcolm X]

yea dont bother, because this conversation is a waste of time right now.

this is quite easy to solve, these signatures need to be checked by at least 6 professionals, forget Sue Iremonger, one persons opinion isn't nearly enough

Sam Fynn ?...... now with all due respect, he was no professional either

[Marlowe]

Hi Good Michael,

I said Sam Flynn proved it -- I didn't say he proved it to himself!! ;-)

And as to me going back and re-reading ANY of that...well let's not get carried away, shall we...

Marlowe

[The Good Michael]

Marlowe,

If you go back and read that thread through about page 30 (and keep your lunch down) I think Sam (Gareth) came to the conclusion that the only suspocious signature was the first one and it was because the 'H' was vastly different, though the 'utchinson' was similar enough. Iremonger compared that signature with Sgt Badham's and found them to be consistent. If I recall, Gareth concurred that the signature was fairly likely to have been Badham's and it did make sense. That is the last I want to say on that. If you read through and find me wrong about Sam's opinion, let me know.

Mike

[Marlowe]

All three were from the same hand. Sam Flynn pretty much proved that some time ago. In my opinion, there's no question about it.

Now, this leaves us with two questions:

(1) Were they from Toppy's hand?
(2) Why were they so different from each other?

As to why they were so different: at best, Hutchinson was very nervous. At worst...well, I can only guess what Flora Schreiber might have said. :-0)

Marlowe

[Sally]

Sally,

If you go here and look at JMenges post, you'll see what was said about the statement signatures.

To be brief, a handwriting analyst said that the first signature (page 1) was done by Sgt Badham. Why? Probably as an afterthought because he forgot to have it signed.

Unfortunately, there is no answer to why, only surmise. It suffices that the last two signatures are sufficently similar to GWTH's that this combined with the fact that there are no other candidates from the same area (East End) of similar ages who come close to matching signatures, makes this GWTH a shoo-in as the witness until someone can disprove it. That doesn't seem a likely occurence.

Mike

PS. Sorry Lechmere for replying. I hope I said about what you would have.

Mike

Thanks for that. I'm more interested in the plausibility of this 'police officer signs on behalf of witness' scenario really. Seems intrinsically unlikely to me that a police officer would 'forget' to have a statement signed. I mean, there was plenty of time to correct the error wasn't there?

It's an aside, that's all, one I can pursue myself.

[Malcolm X]

Oops! Forgot the link, but as Lechmere says, it was done to death and drove good people from the boards and included visitations by lunatics posing as document examiners. No names need to be mentioned.

Mike

yes i remember how bad it was, even i got totally sick of it, i dont think we want to do this all over again..... it just is not worth the grief

[The Good Michael]

Oops! Forgot the link, but as Lechmere says, it was done to death and drove good people from the boards and included visitations by lunatics posing as document examiners. No names need to be mentioned.

Mike

[Lechmere]

Good Michael - I wasn't going to say anything! That discussion was done to death before it seems and a little imagination can provide potential answers.
I will however check out the alternative Hutchinson as it will not take long and it will be as well to have it clearly shown that none of the other candidates are runners, as these things keep cropping up again and again.

[Malcolm X]

Yes the last 2 look more similar but the Hs look wrong, this could be due to a irregular writing surface/ creased up paper/ pen semi blocked/ nervousness, who knows.

the area :- ``INSON `` of Hutchinson looks very similar

[The Good Michael]

Sally,

If you go here and look at JMenges post, you'll see what was said about the statement signatures.

To be brief, a handwriting analyst said that the first signature (page 1) was done by Sgt Badham. Why? Probably as an afterthought because he forgot to have it signed.

Unfortunately, there is no answer to why, only surmise. It suffices that the last two signatures are sufficently similar to GWTH's that this combined with the fact that there are no other candidates from the same area (East End) of similar ages who come close to matching signatures, makes this GWTH a shoo-in as the witness until someone can disprove it. That doesn't seem a likely occurence.

Mike

PS. Sorry Lechmere for replying. I hope I said about what you would have.

[Sally]

maybe, but i cant imagine why, those signatures are totally different.

2 of them look like they're spelt wrong and the third looks like an N corrected to an H, they only look similar because the writing is sloping in the same direction and the first G looks similar.

Hi Malcolm X

Ok - so if the three are 'totally different' - are we thinking they could all be written by different people?

And if so, why?

I would have thought it might have been usual for a witness to sign his own witness statement - if he couldn't write, then at least to have made a mark - as is the case with other legal documents.

Seriously, I am curious - for what reason would another person - in this case I presume a police officer - sign a witness statement on behalf of the witness, either on one or all occasions - wouldn't it invalidate the statement?

Perhaps somebody who knows more about such things than I do can help here - any ideas anyone?

[Malcolm X]

I believe that Sam Flynn proved (quite brilliantly I should add) that all 3 were from the same hand.

Before Sam's great analysis, I don't think anyone knew for sure (other than Rosey O'Ryan) whether those 3 signatures were from the same person or not. But in my opinion, Sam proved they were.

Whether they were from Toppy's hand, or not, is still up for debate.

Marlowe

maybe, but i cant imagine why, those signatures are totally different.

2 of them look like they're spelt wrong and the third looks like an N corrected to an H, they only look similar because the writing is sloping in the same direction and the first G looks similar.

[Sally]

Sally I will go through your rather typically I'll tempered response next week with examples.

It's Saturday morning Lechmere, what do you expect? Sunshine and roses?

But sure. Give yourself plenty of time. There's no rush from this end.