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George William Topping Hutchinson Records

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  • #16
    Or Thomas Brandon

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    • #17
      Hi Lechmere

      Great work. I assume we have GWT's census records?

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      • #18
        I've got them all - they're coming next!

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        • #19
          great

          Hello Lechmere. Great work! Take a bow (but not the street--heh-heh).

          Cheers.
          LC

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          • #20
            Toppy’s marriage certificate – 15th May 1898 to Florence Jervis.
            He is listed as a plumber aged 29.
            She was 20.
            They gave their address as 576 Mile End Road, but they are not listed at that address in either the 1898 or 1899 electoral register – the same seemingly unconnected person was there on both these dates.
            This is near Mile End Tube station, which in turn is quite close to Holy Trinity Church, on Morgan Street, which is where they were married - and where their first son was christened.
            Toppy’s father George was a plumber and was deceased.
            Her father William was a clerk and was a witness. I think his wife was the other witness.
            I have not yet located the Jervis family in any census.
            A nice Toppy signature as well.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #21
              I have already reproduced this christening record for Toppy’s eldest son George William Hutchinson junior, for 2nd April 1899 but here it is again.
              Interestingly George William Hutchinson junior’s birthday is given as 18th November 1898, seven months after his parents’ marriage. Toppy was very precise and had an eye for detail – so did he do the maths?
              The Christening took place at Holy Trinity Church, Morgan Street.
              They gave their address as 10 Barbel Street, Westminster Bridge Road, London SE.
              Toppy’s wife Florence Beatrice got Christened at the same time – her birthday is given as 29th March 1879 so yes she was 20 when she got married.
              I also just noticed that her mother was called Clara so she definitely was the witness at the wedding.
              Barbel Street gets a very bad review by Booth – the worst street in the area full of thieves and prostitutes – windows broken, patched, stuffed, all doors open – and it gets worse. Coloured black on his map. And the inspection was done more or less while Toppy was living there.
              Here’s a link:
              http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b363/jpg/15.html
              Now someone who lived in such a street just couldn’t have lived at the Victoria Home... could he?
              Attached Files
              Last edited by Lechmere; 09-13-2011, 04:34 AM.

              Comment


              • #22
                i'm going to ask some dumb questions so please forgive me

                1....is this Toppy that you mention here supposed to be the actual Kelly eyewitness

                2....does his signature here match the one on his eyewitness statement.


                i dont believe that Kelly's George Hutchinson that we all know of, is the guy that we're after, i think we're after another George Hutchinson.

                for me, GH is JTR but i think he's someone else with the same name, my guess is GH left Whitechapel after the murders, but our Toppy remained here and never killed again and this bothers me.

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                • #23
                  Toppy's son Reg claimed he was the witness.
                  Some say this was a false claim with a variety of possible explanations given as to why he may have made such a claim.
                  Some say the signature matches, some say it (and other signatures) doesn't.

                  Some say that Toppy couldn't have ben Kelly's Hutch for a variety of reasons (he was living in Warren Street in 1891 as a plumber for example).

                  I am looking at all his and his family's movements to see if it is plausible that Toppy could have been living in the Victoria Home as a groom/labourer in 1888.
                  It had been said that as Warren Street was relatively prosperous, and he was a violin playing goody-two shoes and he was living as a lodger in a building with policemen at the time of the 1891 census, then he couldn't have been living in a poor place in 1888.
                  However, I just showed that he lived in one of the worst streets in London in 1899. He also seems to have been a bit of a fly-by-night throughout the 1890s, never settling anywhere for long. He also got his wife pregnant before marrying her.

                  And when he finally settled down it was not in a prosperous working class street but in a rather poor street where he shared his house with another family.

                  I have a lot more to put up yet to get a more rounded picture.
                  Last edited by Lechmere; 09-13-2011, 03:51 PM.

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                  • #24
                    yes and you're doing great work, it will also be very interesting to trace this GH well after 1888, because this is important too.
                    Last edited by Malcolm X; 09-13-2011, 04:17 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Lechmere,

                      Thanks for getting all this Topping stuff in one place. It's sealing the doom of Topping as Ripper idea.

                      Mike
                      huh?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        This is Toppy in the 1891 census.
                        (I was going to do it chronologically but some of my copies are poor and I may need to re-do them).
                        He was living at 69 Warren Street, in the Civil Parish of St Pancras, the Ecclesiastical Parish of St Saviour’s, in the Parliamentary Borough of South St Pancras.
                        He is listed as George William T Hutchinson, a lodger, single, aged 24, a plumber employed by someone else (i.e. not self employed), born in London, Norwood (which then was Surrey but is now in the London Borough of Lambeth).
                        No less than 16 people are listed under 69 Warren Street, in three households.
                        In the first household is Mr Bates, his wife and son. They are occupying two rooms.
                        Then there is Mr Markham, his wife and daughter, occupying another two rooms.
                        The remainder of the house is a Lodging House, of which Catherine Wallace is the keeper and it consists of ten rooms. Nine lodgers are listed. Four are policemen, two a joiners, one a fireman, one (the only female, and she is aged 61) acts as the assistant lodging house keeper and then there is Toppy.
                        It is important to note that this wasn’t a house that had a couple of lodgers. It is actually a smallish lodging house.
                        I would not be surprised if there were in fact more than lodgers as most lodging houses drastically underestimated the number of inmates in the census return.
                        On Booth’s map it is purple – meaning mixed, some comfortable others poor.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
                          Lechmere,

                          Thanks for getting all this Topping stuff in one place. It's sealing the doom of Topping as Ripper idea.

                          Mike
                          Hi The Good michael

                          Even if Hutch is Toppy-what difference does it make? There are so many serial killers that have had what appears to be a "normal" family/personal life. Dennis rader, gary ridgway, John wayne gacy, ted Bundy for example.

                          Anyway
                          Good work Lechmere (my above to GM is not intended to detract from your work on Hutch). keep it coming.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            Hi The Good michael

                            Even if Hutch is Toppy-what difference does it make? There are so many serial killers that have had what appears to be a "normal" family/personal life. Dennis rader, gary ridgway, John wayne gacy, ted Bundy for example.

                            .
                            You are correct, of course. It just becomes less likely.

                            Mike
                            huh?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              This is Toppy in the 1901 census.
                              Now he was living at 80 Tower Street, in the Civil Parish of St George the Martyr, the Ecclesiastical Parish of St Paul’s, in the Parliamentary Division of West Southwark, in the ward of St Michael’s, in the Municipal Borough of Southwark.
                              He is listed as George Hutchinson, married and head of the household, aged 35, a plumber employed by someone else (i.e. not self employed), born in Surrey.
                              Living with him is his wife Florence (aged 32), and his sons George (aged 2) and Albert (aged 1).
                              The house is shared with the Tonks family (husband, wife and five children).

                              The number of rooms occupied by each family is obscured - I think 2 for the Hutchinsons and maybe 3 for the Tonks?
                              Tower Street (now called Morley Street) is very near Barbel Street (where he was listed as living when his eldest son George was christened in April 1899).
                              I haven’t checked other years yet but he wasn’t listed at Tower Street in the 1899 electoral register.
                              On Booth’s map Tower Street is mostly dark blue – meaning very poor. There were many shops with labouring class people living above. Many windows were broken and patched. Inside the open doors there tended to be matting and maybe a bit of floor cloth (relative luxury). Apparently there were a lot of ‘rough looking hatless Irishmen about’ as well!
                              However he also says ‘but many fairly comfortable’. A 4lb loaf of bread would cost 4d in one of the shops.
                              Is it just me or does everything seem to cost 4d?
                              Here’s the relevant link:
                              http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b363/jpg/3.html
                              Attached Files
                              Last edited by Lechmere; 09-13-2011, 07:49 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If Toppy were Hutch then it does make it less likely that he was the Ripper, but not of course impossible. The existing theories would have to be re-written to account for it though.
                                I suspect we will never prove it one way or another, however with more information we will be able to make a better assessment of the likelihood.

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