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  • Versa
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
    Although I am very interested in the Lechmere/Cross thread
    Hiya,

    Where is that thread? I keep looking for it but dont seem to be coming across it!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rubyretro
    replied
    Sally -I don't know about Restivo cutting Elisa claps breasts off -but how about this :

    Restivo admits meeting Elisa for a tryst alone at a lonely church

    -according to the pathologist she "almost certainly reached the loft of the Most Holy Trinity Church alive and was stabbed to death when she got there, Winchester Crown Court heard"

    -" The 16-year-old schoolgirl died of multiple wounds, nine from the back and three from the front, said Italian pathologist, Professor Francesco Introna".

    So now we have multiple stab wounds and overkill -a different MO from Heather Barnett (well, -the 'overkill' is still there).

    " some of the injuries were inflicted with a knife but others were more likely to have been caused by scissors" The pathologist went on to say, " 12 of the injuries were stab wounds and one was a cut, probably the result of the victim moving, possibly in a struggle".

    He added: “The different angles of the wounds showed that she either moved or tried to escape or avoid the rapid, successive blows.”

    So now we not only have multiple stab wounds but two different weapons.

    Martha Tabram , anyone ?

    " Elisa’s trousers and pants had been partially lowered and her bra unhooked at the back and broken at the front, between the cups". She hadn't been raped though.

    Elisa's body was hidden -but it was still posed with a clump of hair in her hand..like Heather Barnett.
    Last edited by Rubyretro; 06-12-2011, 08:10 PM.

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  • Sally
    replied
    It looks as though, in this case, the victims were perhaps the specific object of the killer's fantasy - and maybe this developed over time because he knew them. Perhaps his perception of his relationship with his victims was more important to him than their age.

    I'm not clear on how he killed Eliza Clapp in 1993; but it appears that he may have cut her breasts off also. I find it interesting that he cut his neighbour's throat, even though he had bludgeoned her to death first. Cutting her throat to cause death would presumably have been just as easy, if not more so - so I take it that what followed, including the throat cutting, was all about display.

    Looking at the pictures of him that come up with a Google search, he looks like quite a pleasant person - goes to show you can't tell by looking. Jtr was probably like that imo - outwardly normal, apparently friendly and pleasant.

    Thanks to Ruby for starting the thread - an interesting case.

    Leave a comment:


  • SarahLee
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post

    So I think the opportunity to kill, with the least risk of being caught, ultimately was more important than the type of victim (in both cases), even if a young attractive victim would have been -well, more attractive.
    And that is the other interesting point in the Restivo case.
    One of the reasons I've seen quoted for dismissing MJK as a victim is her apparent age and attractiveness compared to the others. What Restivo shows is that it's possible to move away from "type" and make-do with something else, if circumstances and opportunity dictate.

    While I take Roy's point about many serial killers targeting youth and beauty - that's hardly surprising since they're attributes valued by society. That's not to say that all killers are motivated by the same things.
    What if Jack's particular fixation was the "mother-figure" and MJK was a deviation from this simply due to the opportunity arising??? I think that's interesting food for thought.

    Leave a comment:


  • SarahLee
    replied
    Hi Ruby,

    Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
    The thing is though, that a woman who is killed so quickly that she can't
    fight back, who is dead before her throat is cut, who has her sexual organs exposed and breasts cut off, not raped but has her arm arranged over her
    lower body aren't "random" parallels. They are very apposite parallels.
    And on those points I agree that they are indeed very interesting parallels . . . To me far more interesting than trying to connect him to witnesses / suspects that could be perceived to have inserted themselves into the JTR investigation. I'm mindful of the fact that Restivo hasn't yet been proven guilty, but should that be the case and should he ever confess, an insight into his mind and the reasoning behind his actions could prove very pertinent to what may have been going on in our Jack's mind.

    Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
    I was amazed, when I visited the area, with just how close the site of the Victoria Home (where Hutch lodged) is to the site of Miller's Court. Mary solicited outside the 10 Bells, but we know that prostitutes of the time habitually went from pub to pub looking for clients. That Mary wouldn't also go from the Bells to the Queen Victoria (??) to the Princess Alice (which was
    opposite the Victoria Home, unless you want to nitpick), seems very improbable to me.
    Whether you think that McCarthy is a suspect, surely depends on whether you think that Mary was the victim of Jack, or a copycat killing by someone
    else -I believe the former. It seems impossible that such a well known and colourful local personage such as McCarthy could go unoticed in the vicinity of a murder.
    I have to confess to not having visited the Whitechapel area, despite being in London fairly frequently for work. Looking at maps isn't quite the same, so I will happily defer to you there.

    I really don't have a view as to likely suspects right now. I'm still in the process of piecing together what I think may have really happened on those nights. Once I get to a place where I feel relatively happy with events as they occurred, only then will I turn my mind to suspects and try to decide which (if any) of those that we're aware of might be a plausible fit. I prefer to work that way, rather than start with a suspect and try to build events up around his actions.

    But for what it's worth, I believe that MJK was almost certainly killed by the same hand as Eddowes . . . and that the same person most likely also killed Nichols and Chapman (that pair are also strongly linked to one another by the same killer in my mind)

    I don't currently see McCarthy than anything more than a witness. My point in naming him was to highlight the danger in placing too much reliance on modern parallels. If you were going to build a case against a person based on similarities with Restivo's behavioir, McCarthy would seem to be a stronger reflection - even though he doesn't seem to be a likely suspect.

    I may turn my mind a little later to parallels with other witness / suspect behaviour . . . after all it's a rainy day without much else to do. However, I think that there are far more relevant points to be drawn out from the Restivo case rather than trying to match parallel suspects.

    p.s. Thank you for posting about it !!!

    Leave a comment:


  • Rubyretro
    replied
    I don't think that they actually mean anything other than highlighting the potential pitfalls in reading too much into the details of a recent killing and drawing random parallels with events of more than 100 years ago,
    The thing is though, that a woman who is killed so quickly that she can't
    fight back, who is dead before her throat is cut, who has her sexual organs exposed and breasts cut off, not raped but has her arm arranged over her
    lower body aren't "random" parallels. They are very apposite parallels.

    Your parallel with Restivo would seem more fitting with McCarthy rather than Hutch wouldn't you say?
    We have the close proximity to the dwelling, and in terms of the behaviour after the murder it's a better fit.
    I was amazed, when I visited the area, with just how close the site of the Victoria Home (where Hutch lodged) is to the site of Miller's Court. Mary solicited outside the 10 Bells, but we know that prostitutes of the time habitually went from pub to pub looking for clients. That Mary wouldn't also go from the Bells to the Queen Victoria (??) to the Princess Alice (which was
    opposite the Victoria Home, unless you want to nitpick), seems very improbable to me.
    Whether you think that McCarthy is a suspect, surely depends on whether you think that Mary was the victim of Jack, or a copycat killing by someone
    else -I believe the former. It seems impossible that such a well known and colourful local personage such as McCarthy could go unoticed in the vicinity of a murder.

    [QUOTE]
    If you wanted to witness somebody's horror at discovering what you'd done, what better way than sending Bowyer round knowing what he'd find? It also gives him the opportunity to legitimately have another look at his own handiwork and to observe the police reaction.[/QUOTE
    Granted. Hutch was also taken to identify the body.

    Although I am very interested in the Lechmere/Cross thread, I feel that nevertheless there is one important detail that points to Hutch above Cross :
    the murders stoped after Hutch became known to the police and press, and linked to the murders for the local population. The canonical murders were only just beginning when Cross discovered Polly's body. Any 'guilty' witness to one of the murders could surely never risk ever being spotted near a crime scene again -so to think that Cross was standing over the body in Buck's Row, and would risk being identified in Berner Street, or by a Lawende, seems laughable if he was such a quick witted killer.

    Now that I start thinking of it, I could probably sit here and come up with some sort of parallel for many of the witnesses and suspects.
    please! -do!

    IMO, it's a real shame that your first thread about Restivo has disappeared into the depths. It's an interesting case, and there's probably far more to be gleaned from it in terms of understanding motivation. I honestly think that it deserves to be discussed on its own and not as a reference point to Hutch or anyone else as a suspect
    .

    I certainly agree with you there..

    Leave a comment:


  • Rubyretro
    replied
    Some very interesting replies...

    Maybe serial killers go for "young attractive women"...but ultimately often have to compromise with what's available ?

    Certainly, according to contempory reports, Mary Kelly was young and attractive for her era and station in life. It could be that Jack would have much preferred to have killed more MJK types and less Annie Chapmans..but there simply weren't that many of the former available to him and he began with the 'easy pickings' ?

    Danilo Restivo killed a pretty 16 year old girl in Italy, and his favourite targets for stalking and cutting hair in England, were teenage girls with long hair.

    He was about aged 22 when he killed Elisa Claps in Italy, and he persuaded her to meet him in a lonely church, where he killed her and hid the body.

    He was 31 when he murdered his neighbour -arguably too old to easily persuade a pretty teenager to meet him alone. The neighbour -Heather Barnett- was aged 48 and had very short hair. and she was a housewife and mother of two. She wasn't the type of girl that Restivo liked following on buses and in cinemas (where he could sit behind them and cut their hair) at all. She did have her own private house though, to carry out a murder
    and mutilation, and she did know him (however slightly) and would open the door to him.

    So I think the opportunity to kill, with the least risk of being caught, ultimately was more important than the type of victim (in both cases), even if a young attractive victim would have been -well, more attractive.

    I certainly agree that modern serial killers are copycats of Jack in a way ;
    if it's fame that they like, then of course Jack was famous through the media...and he got away with it. So I expect that they would all like to emulate him in that respect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roy Corduroy
    replied
    Ruby, I see what you are saying about the similarities.

    I had read a lot of true crime, still do. And when I first came to study the Ripper case, I would think through those examples and compare to the Ripper crimes. But over time, I've changed my mind. For two reasons. For one thing, most of the Whitechapel victims were middle aged. Modern serial killers target young attractive women. So unless, as forum member Claire put it, Jack was an "old dosser" who got his thrill, I don't see the connection. Secondly, and most important, ALL modern serial killers are in some ways copycats of Jack the Ripper. So I can't compare a copycat to the real thing. Why would I want to?

    But using Restivo as a Hutchable argument, with the inserting himself, yes you are onto something.

    Roy

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  • SarahLee
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post

    If you can see a parrallel with any other suspect -then do talk about it..please !
    OK, in the interests of stimulating discussion I'll draw a couple of parallels. I don't think that they actually mean anything other than highlighting the potential pitfalls in reading too much into the details of a recent killing and drawing random parallels with events of more than 100 years ago, but this is an interesting idea for a thread and who knows what it may draw out???

    Your parallel with Restivo would seem more fitting with McCarthy rather than Hutch wouldn't you say?
    We have the close proximity to the dwelling, and in terms of the behaviour after the murder it's a better fit.

    If you wanted to witness somebody's horror at discovering what you'd done, what better way than sending Bowyer round knowing what he'd find? It also gives him the opportunity to legitimately have another look at his own handiwork and to observe the police reaction.

    Or on that basis, could we not draw the same conclusion about Cross and Nichols?

    Now that I start thinking of it, I could probably sit here and come up with some sort of parallel for many of the witnesses and suspects.
    IMO, it's a real shame that your first thread about Restivo has disappeared into the depths. It's an interesting case, and there's probably far more to be gleaned from it in terms of understanding motivation. I honestly think that it deserves to be discussed on its own and not as a reference point to Hutch or anyone else as a suspect.
    Last edited by SarahLee; 06-11-2011, 12:40 PM.

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  • Versa
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Ok, thankyou for this.
    The man seen by Schwartz appears to be the alter-ego of the calm & casual Hutchinson. This man was beating up on Stride, in stark contrast, wouldn't you say?
    In all fairness I suspect that JtR whoever he was had an alter ego...

    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    The man (with woman) seen by Brown was at a location where a couple admitted to have been standing at 12:45 am that night/morning on the same corner. Brown's "man" does not fit the man (with Stride) seen by PC Smith opposite Dutfield Yard at 12:35 am.

    Are these just random selections of "short-stout" men mentioned in Whitechapel?
    no they aren't random people but as I am new to the boards I did consult a book that gets banded about here (the jack the ripper complete a-z) but its fair to say that there were a couple of descriptions of a stoutish man in the witness statements. and you've ignored these two....

    Short---- Mrs Elizabeth Darrell- saw a man a little taller than Annie Chapman who was 5ft tall

    Short & stout ---- Israel Schwartz- saw a man about 5'5'' stoutly built

    I believe there is also a mention by a witness (although I cant recall who) of the man being 'broad shouldered' which could be 'stout'

    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    It's a shame we don't have a better description of Hutchinson, because what we do have doesn't convince that a specific individual is intended. Did Hutch have red hair, or a beard?, wear glasses?
    yes agreed, I would love to see a description of him!

    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    How can you place him at a crime scene when you cannot describe him?
    you cant BUT HE DID.... He might of been there a day before if he had memory problems BUT he did admit to hanging around outside a murder victims abode (whether it be the same day or the day before) for 45 mins for no good reason and that makes him suspect.
    Last edited by Versa; 06-11-2011, 01:12 AM.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Ok, thankyou for this.

    Originally posted by Versa View Post
    Short---- Mrs Elizabeth Darrell- saw a man a little taller than Annie Chapman who was 5ft tall
    Short & stout ---- Israel Schwartz- saw a man about 5'5'' stoutly built
    short and stout-----James Brown-- saw a stoutish man about 5'7''
    The man seen by Schwartz appears to be the alter-ego of the calm & casual Hutchinson. This man was beating up on Stride, in stark contrast, wouldn't you say?

    The man (with woman) seen by Brown was at a location where a couple admitted to have been standing at 12:45 am that night/morning on the same corner. Brown's "man" does not fit the man (with Stride) seen by PC Smith opposite Dutfield Yard at 12:35 am.

    Are these just random selections of "short-stout" men mentioned in Whitechapel?

    Also is there any evidence that says that any of the other descriptions are of the killer?
    Most working men in the 19th century dressed very similar, I mean there wasn't the range of fashions for the working class that there is today.
    It's a shame we don't have a better description of Hutchinson, because what we do have doesn't convince that a specific individual is intended. Did Hutch have red hair, or a beard?, wear glasses?
    How can you place him at a crime scene when you cannot describe him?

    Regards, Jon S.

    Leave a comment:


  • Versa
    replied
    Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    Do you see a "short, stout" man involved in any of the other Whitechapel murders?

    Jon S.

    Short---- Mrs Elizabeth Darrell- saw a man a little taller than Annie Chapman who was 5ft tall

    Short & stout ---- Israel Schwartz- saw a man about 5'5'' stoutly built

    short and stout-----James Brown-- saw a stoutish man about 5'7''

    I know that the average height of British men was about 5' 4''-5'5" but your in a area that is basically multicultural and the height of the men seen on the street would of varied more than it would in a 'purely British' area. As such I think that anything under 5'6'' can be considered short.

    I have my G.G Grandfathers Navy records (c1890) and he was 5'11 and from Chiswick, he wasn't a freak or a giant as evidenced by photographs.

    Also is there any evidence that says that any of the other descriptions are of the killer?
    Last edited by Versa; 06-11-2011, 12:08 AM.

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  • Wickerman
    replied
    Originally posted by Rubyretro View Post
    If you can see a parrallel with any other suspect -then do talk about it..please !


    Do you see a "short, stout" man involved in any of the other Whitechapel murders?

    Jon S.

    Leave a comment:


  • Versa
    replied
    He certainly does share some MO with JtR and I can only assume that his details will be added to the database (assuming such a thing exists) and criminal profilers will have more information to use when profiling a crime.

    By the way what a disgusting man, I can cope with most crimes but when children become involved on any level I cant really deal with it.

    Its probably worth searching the records to find crimes linked to cutting hair on the off chance that JtR was doing something similar, I think in the distant recesses of my brain I have heard of hair cutting linked to mutilations before.

    He's certainly not the first serial killer to have some contact with the police during the investigation and its why I came to look at Hutch. I have said elsewhere that the first place I went to when I came to the forums was to the witness list....
    Last edited by Versa; 06-10-2011, 11:31 PM. Reason: too many certains!

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  • Rubyretro
    replied
    Chris -believe me I didn't reference Hutch at all in my first attempt to talk about Restivo, at the beginning of his trial.

    No one replied, so I tried to find a more contentious 'angle' !

    Since it's no secret on these threads that Hutchinson is my favourite suspect,
    I chose to link him and not, say, Druitt.

    If you can see a parrallel with any other suspect -then do talk about it..please !

    Leave a comment:

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