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If GH was JtR where did he bring his "trophies"

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  • Rubyretro
    replied
    Abby -We already established on another thread (Offal ?), that kidneys etc would be the cheapest cuts of meat and eaten regularly by the poor (and the rich for breakfast !). There would be a grill or somewhere to cook in a lodging house, and some one producing a kidney out of a piece of paper from their pocket would be a common and daily occurrence.

    JtR apparently knew how to cut his victim's throats, after choking most of them, and keeping himself to one side, so that he would not get arterial spray on himself. He would not have been 'covered in blood'. Of course, it was probably impossible that he wouldn't get some blood spots on him -but if he was wearing tatty & stained clothing anyway, or something like a 'salt and pepper' tweed jacket, and given the lack of forensic examination, this could easily go un-noticed.

    The exception is MJK -but we know that there were other clothes in the room which he burnt in the fireplace. He could have shielded his own clothes, cleaned himself up, and then burned the evidence.

    He could have used the victims own clothes to wipe his hands & knife.

    It is fair to say that, if he could fade into the street scene after a crime, that he was not very messy !

    ps did he certainly take a heart ??? whose ?? If it was MJK's -could he not have cooked it up over that fire ?

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  • Rubyretro
    replied
    Abby -We already established on another thread (Offal ?), that kidneys etc would be the cheapest cuts of meat and eaten regularly by the poor (and the rich for breakfast !). There would be a grill or somewhere to cook in a lodging house, and some one producing a kidney out of a piece of paper from their pocket would be a common and daily occurrence.

    JtR apparently knew how to cut his victim's throats, after choking most of them, and keeping himself to one side, so that he would not get arterial spray on himself. He would not have been 'covered in blood'. Of course, it was probably impossible that he wouldn't get some blood spots on him -but if he was wearing tatty & stained clothing anyway, or something like a 'salt and pepper' tweed jacket, and given the lack of forensic examination, this could easily go un-noticed.

    The exception is MJK -but we know that there were other clothes in the room which he burnt in the fireplace. He could have shielded his own clothes, cleaned himself up, and then burned the evidence.

    He could have used the victims own clothes to wipe his hands & knife.

    It is fair to say that, if he could fade into the street scene after a crime, that he was not very messy !

    Leave a comment:


  • John Winsett
    replied
    Originally posted by Marc View Post
    Venturing the tip of my nose on the issue of JtR personal 'museum' if living in a crowded place.
    Please don't beat me to death if the following seems widely dubious
    and don't mind correcting me if wrong on anything :

    - railway stations had lockers then ?
    - you could rent one anonymously for a very small price ?

    Just got the locker's idea out of the top of my head, since the number of human remains from murdered victims found left in railway lockers (usually from smell etc...) seems to be pretty high in the 'history of crime'
    Not a bad idea at all...I think we can kill the idea of cannibal jack cooking up organs in the lodging houses unless he's serving it up for dinner for everyone else. Actually to cook a heart and uterus would not be an easy affair according to Martin Fido(at least a uterus).

    Leave a comment:


  • Marc
    replied
    Railway station locker ?

    Venturing the tip of my nose on the issue of JtR personal 'museum' if living in a crowded place.
    Please don't beat me to death if the following seems widely dubious
    and don't mind correcting me if wrong on anything :

    - railway stations had lockers then ?
    - you could rent one anonymously for a very small price ?

    Just got the locker's idea out of the top of my head, since the number of human remains from murdered victims found left in railway lockers (usually from smell etc...) seems to be pretty high in the 'history of crime'

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by GregBaron View Post
    There used to be a dude on here that argued JtR could have easily
    lived in a lodging house and even come in bloodied and bedraggled..
    They've since thrown him off but he made some good arguments....
    Apparently these were pretty hideous joints full of butchers, bakers
    and candlestick makers(and ladies of the evening) and I too was skeptical.
    .....I think you're right Abby in saying that a uterus or heart is a bit different
    than a kidney when it comes to cuisine.....it makes more sense
    to me that Jack had his own private bolt hole where he could admire his
    trophies in isolation............

    Greg
    Agree

    Especially, if you believe that the lusk letter was genuine and JtR needed some place to cut up a kidney, preserve it (for a couple of weeks), write a letter about it and perhaps fry up and eat part of it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by claire View Post
    Abby, I think you're underestimating how crowded these places were. People were busy gambling, fencing stolen goods, conducting assignations, cooking, fighting, sluicing crap down the drain, shouting, peeing out of windows, drinking and so forth. A human heart or kidney, as pointed out extensively by Sam Flynn way back in the good old days, don't look that different to those of a pig. I'm not suggesting the chap took them out lovingly and stroked them at the kitchen table and no one cared or noticed, but I do maintain that he could have had them with him, and easily cooked them up in the communal kitchen, or put them under his cot. The only ones liable to pay much mind would have been the house cats. Anyone else would know they were risking a smack.

    The other alternative was something else that Sam Flynn dug out, which was that, in the Peabody homes, a man could rent a private room, with a key to come and go as he pleased, for very little money as long as he could pay on a weekly basis. But since you're talking about Hutch, and presuming him to be a unique individual (ie. isn't someone else), then I guess that doesn't apply.

    But don't underestimate how chaotic and rancid the common lodging houses were...it's a shame John Bennett doesn't post on here more frequently, as his expertise on this matter is far greater than mine.
    Hi Claire
    Thanks-i have a better idea of how crazy and chaotic these places could be however I am still sceptical especially since at the height of the murders when the general public was aware of organ removal that this could be possible

    Leave a comment:


  • claire
    replied
    Abby, I think you're underestimating how crowded these places were. People were busy gambling, fencing stolen goods, conducting assignations, cooking, fighting, sluicing crap down the drain, shouting, peeing out of windows, drinking and so forth. A human heart or kidney, as pointed out extensively by Sam Flynn way back in the good old days, don't look that different to those of a pig. I'm not suggesting the chap took them out lovingly and stroked them at the kitchen table and no one cared or noticed, but I do maintain that he could have had them with him, and easily cooked them up in the communal kitchen, or put them under his cot. The only ones liable to pay much mind would have been the house cats. Anyone else would know they were risking a smack.

    The other alternative was something else that Sam Flynn dug out, which was that, in the Peabody homes, a man could rent a private room, with a key to come and go as he pleased, for very little money as long as he could pay on a weekly basis. But since you're talking about Hutch, and presuming him to be a unique individual (ie. isn't someone else), then I guess that doesn't apply.

    But don't underestimate how chaotic and rancid the common lodging houses were...it's a shame John Bennett doesn't post on here more frequently, as his expertise on this matter is far greater than mine.

    Leave a comment:


  • GregBaron
    replied
    Heart Au Jus anyone...........

    There used to be a dude on here that argued JtR could have easily
    lived in a lodging house and even come in bloodied and bedraggled..
    They've since thrown him off but he made some good arguments....
    Apparently these were pretty hideous joints full of butchers, bakers
    and candlestick makers(and ladies of the evening) and I too was skeptical.
    .....I think you're right Abby in saying that a uterus or heart is a bit different
    than a kidney when it comes to cuisine.....it makes more sense
    to me that Jack had his own private bolt hole where he could admire his
    trophies in isolation............

    Greg

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by claire View Post
    I think much of this question has been covered on other threads, although not specifically relating to GH. As, I believe, Natalie Severn and others (sorry, guys, my memory's not what it was) have pointed out, the quality of food cooked up in the lodging wasn't up to much, and producing nasty bits of offal wasn't that unusual. People say, oh, he'll just have this kidney or heart stuffed into his pocket, as if he'd have this dripping organ wedged uncovered into his clothes...there's nothing to presume he wouldn't wrap it in a bit of newspaper, and then it would look just like the nasty food prepared by your average common lodger. Ergo, private rooms wouldn't be necessary on that count.
    Hi Claire
    Thanks for the response. I would have to disagree with you there. i don't care how bad the food is at a the lodging house i think it is a stretch to think he could bring these things into such a public place and not be questioned and/or busted. JtR is carrying around human internal organs (wrapped in nespaper or not)-kideny, heart, Uterus? How is he going to do anything(store them,cook them, preserve them, take them out and admire them) in a lodging house and not be noticed?

    Leave a comment:


  • John Winsett
    replied
    Originally posted by claire View Post
    I think much of this question has been covered on other threads, although not specifically relating to GH. As, I believe, Natalie Severn and others (sorry, guys, my memory's not what it was) have pointed out, the quality of food cooked up in the lodging wasn't up to much, and producing nasty bits of offal wasn't that unusual. People say, oh, he'll just have this kidney or heart stuffed into his pocket, as if he'd have this dripping organ wedged uncovered into his clothes...there's nothing to presume he wouldn't wrap it in a bit of newspaper, and then it would look just like the nasty food prepared by your average common lodger. Ergo, private rooms wouldn't be necessary on that count.
    Great point. Disgusting, but great point.

    Leave a comment:


  • John Winsett
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Thanks-actually a very good point. However, specifically:

    If he did not throw it in the fire, Where did GH go with MK's heart in his pocket? he was unemployed at the time so he could not have gone to his place of business- I understand from his own statement he said he walked around all night because the Victoria House was closed for the night?

    What named suspect was a butcher?
    Well, if he had just killed kelly and took her heart to make it look like a JTR murder he could've thrown it down the street drain, burned it, cooked it etc. I don't know of any named suspect that was a butcher, but since we don't know all the suspects that were questioned, I would bet they interviewed lots of butchers and slaughterhouse people. I don't believe JTR is a named suspect.

    Leave a comment:


  • claire
    replied
    I think much of this question has been covered on other threads, although not specifically relating to GH. As, I believe, Natalie Severn and others (sorry, guys, my memory's not what it was) have pointed out, the quality of food cooked up in the lodging wasn't up to much, and producing nasty bits of offal wasn't that unusual. People say, oh, he'll just have this kidney or heart stuffed into his pocket, as if he'd have this dripping organ wedged uncovered into his clothes...there's nothing to presume he wouldn't wrap it in a bit of newspaper, and then it would look just like the nasty food prepared by your average common lodger. Ergo, private rooms wouldn't be necessary on that count.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by John Winsett View Post
    You're assuming JTR went back to his home. What if he went to his place of business? such as a butcher's shop where these types of trophys could be hidden? Hutchinson wasn't JTR although I think he killed Kelly.
    Thanks-actually a very good point. However, specifically:

    If he did not throw it in the fire, Where did GH go with MK's heart in his pocket? he was unemployed at the time so he could not have gone to his place of business- I understand from his own statement he said he walked around all night because the Victoria House was closed for the night?

    What named suspect was a butcher?

    Leave a comment:


  • John Winsett
    replied
    You're assuming JTR went back to his home. What if he went to his place of business? such as a butcher's shop where these types of trophys could be hidden? Hutchinson wasn't JTR although I think he killed Kelly.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    started a topic If GH was JtR where did he bring his "trophies"

    If GH was JtR where did he bring his "trophies"

    where did he bring the organs of his victims, clean up, hide afterwards?
    His residence was the Victoria House-i am assuming he did not have his own room?

    If he did not have his own room, where could he have done all this?

    This has always made me wonder-mainly that JtR MUST have had his own private room somewhere where h could have done all this.
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