Romford to Millers court

[Stephen Thomas]

Maybe someone should try this walk and time it.

Not me though coz I got bad legs.

[Rubyretro]

Well said, Fisherman..

I'm not a Rambler or anything, but I've already pointed out that I've lived
in rural areas without a car & got used to doing very long distances on foot.
I know people that walk these sort of distances for pleasure. It doesn't seem a miraculously long distance to me.

Besides -he could have hitched parts of the way on a passing wagon
(I imagine that it was a busy road, and people would have picked up a working man).

He also could have rested at various pubs (and spent his money), if he wasn't pressed for time.

Maybe he WAS tired -and wanted to get into Mary's room partly for that reason...

[Fisherman]

Good morning, Harry!

Two points:

1. I fail to see why such a walk should be regarded as too much to take on for a young man. I know that I have trekked distances like that (and more)when I was 22, wearing a heavy backpack with tent, sleeping bag, clothing, food etc on my back. So I am speaking from experience, and I was by no means the toughest of trekkers, just an ordinary one. My wife-to-be walked the same stretches with me many a time, she too carrying a heavy load. And if you take a look at earlier posts here, somebody (was it Claire?) writes that even her mothers group of walking pensionists would be ashamed to take on anything lesser than a healthy fifteen miles.
This is all I can say - there is really nothing much to it. But even if there was ...

2. ... who is to say that Hutchinson was NOT somewhat fatigued by it? Why do we have to have it in writing? Why would he speak of it? If the police thought it the eight miracle of the world, why did they not ask him about it? Because they knew that treks like these were made by heaps of people in the region, day in and day out!

It is a perfectly reasonable stretch to cover, and we have no idea whether it made Hutch tired or not. And thatīs that.

The best,
Fisherman

[harry]

Fisherman,
Indeed,if it was Toppy? and he was a strapping 22 year old,in the prime?Still wouldn't convince me he could complete the Whitechapel to Romford and back trip and not be affected by physical and mental fatigue,no matter how much time he had at his disposal,but his story shows no sign of either.

[richardnunweek]

Hello ,
I would say also, that Topping was a decent hard working family man, also regarding that Radio broadcast[ which I failed to trace whilst looking through countless Radio times editions at Brighton university a year or so back, simply because I/we never searched the rear pages. which I since believe the details were]. I must maintain did exist, not only did it exist, a man named as the son, of the man, known as Hutchinson spoke live.
As the broadcast mentioned, the same details, as Reg in the Ripper and the Royals, a simple deduction is, they were one and the same..
We must take into account the sum of money mentioned in the Wheeling publication of 1888[ a rare article] ie.. five weeks wages.. approx the average labourers wage x5 which would be equivilent to the hundred shillings, mentioned both on radio, and publication, which incidently were 18 years apart.
Sorry to waffle on , but I know what I heard, and I cannot help being alone, lets face it I am talking about a broadcast at least 36 years ago, mayby more, and members ages do come into it.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

meeting of the minds

Hello Fish. Ah! Then we have a meeting of the minds. I tend to believe that Toppy was a good family man, etc.

Of course, I cannot rule too much out at this point.

Well, the conversation has been pleasant, but I must pop round to work.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Fear not, Lynn - I can see where you are coming from! And I am not opposed to the kind of thing you suggest, itīs just that I donīt share the hunch, simple as that.

On the other hand, I try to keep as open a mind as possible, and that tells me not to rule Topping out as the knife-wielder. History is stuffed with killers that were masquerading as happy family fathers. But if we speak of gut feelings, Iīd say that is about all Toppy was - a family father.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

the choir

Hello Fish. I think you are preaching to the choir. I agree that, given the purported scenario, sitting tight would be the preferred strategy. (Similarly, the police in the clipping could have remarked that the prisoner staggered--being drunken--and fell backwards.)

As far as the signatures go, if they were NOT the same, I'd look Eastward to behold the imminent Second Coming.

Oh, dear--I hope you don't think that I believe that Toppy wielded a knife at Miller's Court? Oh, dear me, no. Not a bit of it. But neither do I think he was completely ignorant of the events that transpired.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Thatīs a fine clip, Lynn - most informative! Itīs always good to take part in nuggets like these.

But on the whole, if we make the assumption that Lewis had made no identification of Hutch - and indeed, no such thing seems recorded or even hinted at - would you not agree that sitting tight would be the expected thing to do, and then formulate the counterstrike SHOULD THE NEED ARISE?

Moreover, since the signatures tell us that the man in question was in all probability George Topping Hutchinson, have a look at his photo: Is this the short-set, broad man that Lewis spoke of? I, for one, think not.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

police cover story

Hello Fish. I have no problem whatsoever with Toppy = Hutch.

Concerning police cover stories, well, sometimes they are not well thought out and/or contain gaps. I am certainly not pointing fingers at any of London's finest. But coppers are like all of us, some good, some bad and (like me) some ugly.

(The clipping is from Lloyd's Weekly, April 8, 1888, p. 6.)

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

So in 122 years we have only one identification, so why on earth are we still in doubt.

We're still in doubt, Richard, because it's a highly smelling kettle of fish.

I have always supported your view that Hutch/Toppy were the same person
-but I must say that I think that I was wrong.

Gary Wroe pointed out to me that Toppy had qualified as a plumber a couple of years before, following his father into the trade. I have no problem at all
imagining reasons why a young man might leave to go to the city for a while and accept odd jobs in order to eat or for the change (although there surely must have been plumbing jobs going, which paid better), but I DO have a huge problem accepting that Toppy wouldn't have described himself as an 'unemployed Plumber' after the time, affort, and money spent in an apprenticeship (it would surely have made himself a more credible police witness, as a person with a trade is surely 'a cut above').

I try and imagine that a qualified nurse going to London and taking odd jobs waitressing and bar-maiding -wouldn't she still define herself as 'un-employed 'nurse', rather than anything else ?

Hutch was described as an un-employed 'groom' (which he may or may not have been), and this is probable (given that he was described as such at the time & not a 'plumber', and the horseshoe pin on Astrakhan). He couldn't have been a plumber and a groom -and surely the police checked some things out ? Why be caught lying to the police about a detail like that ?

And then, Richard, you seem to have been the only person who heard this programme -and apparently Reg's family can't even remember him being on it.

David Knott spoke to Toppy's family and says that he's 99.99% sure that they aren't the same person (see the signature thread).

I no longer believe that the 'Reg' report is all it seems..

[Fisherman]

Well, Lynn, if so, all I can say was that he would have performed that duty being George Topping Hutchinson, and not acting under a false alias. The similarity inbetween the signatures puts that beyond reasonable doubt.

Moreover, he would ONLY need a cover story IF somebody had been able to identify him as the man on the spot. And - speaking of nasty police activities - it would be a very much easier route to follow in such a case to just say "No, Maīam, you must be mistaken", and then certify this by saying that Hutch was playing poker with five VERY reliable police officers at the given time

Why do things the difficult way, Lynn? Until the identification was there, there was no need for any cover-up, and IF it came about, it would be easily taken care of.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

character

Hello Fish. No, I'm not calling Hutch's character into question. I am suggesting, in a manner similar to Phil's, that Hutch may have been paid to keep an eye out that night. Later, he needed a cover story, given that he had been seen by a witness.

Covert activities can be nasty--even if performed by the police.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"Is it possible that you are discussing two sides of the same coin?
Is there not a story extant that Reg mentioned his father as being paid a sum by the police? Would that not jibe with Phil's conjecture about Hutch?"

If you mean that it would in any way point Hutch out as not being credible, I fail to see why. If the police were ready to pay for assistance - something that I find very plausible - then how does it reflect badly on Hutchīs character if he agreed to accept it? Or do you mean that there never could have been any offer made?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Harry:

"It would be possible for a specially trained person of a special forces unit to do the Romford to Whitechapel distance with ease,,but that would be a fit and trim young person,on a reasonably good balanced diet."

If it was Topping Hutchinson (and there is every reason to believe that), we are dealing with a man of 22 years, in the prime of his youth and strength that is. And he needed not to use but a little bit of that strength, since an average walking speed would take care of the journey in lesser time than he would have left over. Check out my post to Dixon!

"There is nothing that substanciates a trip to Romford"

Not today, no - but there would have been at the time. He stated that he walked all the way to Romford, soending all his money on the trip. That would mean that he bought something, reasonably food, from someone, either down in Romford or on the journey. Such things can be checked, Harry, and they would have been, had the police seen the need to.
He also must have gone to Romford for a reason, and that would have left source number two to check by.

"I would like to be shown proof."

Me too! But we shall have to settle for the fact that there is nothing in it that could present Hutch with anything but a smiling guard opening the doors from the courtroom out into the free British air, and saying "have a nice day, sir!".

The best,
Fisherman