The Statement of George Hutchinson

[Ben]

Hi all,

I fervently hope that we're not going to get bogged down in more suggestions that copies are as good as originals. I'd hate to have to copy and paste from the 1911 discussion where this was agonized over in painful detail. Crystal's comments have satisfactorily demonstrated, to my mind, that original documents reveal many siginificant details that aren't immediately apparent in scanned copies appearing on computer screens - pen pressure and relative size being two crucial ones.

Her discoveries increase our understanding considerably, in my view, and as for the research shared with us by Mr. Lowe, surely the most illuminating aspect is that professional document examiners consistently deliver the most accurate results over their laymen counterparts. It is freshing to see that the necessity for both document examiners and original documents in recognised by most. For those who disagree, fair enough, but I'd respectfully submit that we await Crystal's recounting of her additional findings (including the Toppy-related ones), before we repeat that argument again.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

Hi BB,

I've already answered this: no left-handed could be bad as Jack - except, perhaps, Ahmad bin Ibrahim. But it's something else...

Seriously, simply post-mortem evidences (including Tabram's).

Amitiés,
David

[babybird67]

re the finger print...

I understand Crystal is hoping to get permission to show the images of the documents she examined.

I've had a private sneaky peek (not equivalent to a sneaky peek of privates, please note!) and the fingerprint is inky...which suggests to my untrained and therefore quite fallible mind, that the print was contemporaneous with the statement, so i would rule out 20th century researchers and pen pushers at the station who handled the document after the statement had been taken.

Of course it could be possible that someone held the statement down for Hutchinson whilst he signed his name, in which case it could be Badham's fingerprint, or one of the other officers...i dont know enough about the relation of the print in regards to the person signing...eg the angle that might suggest it would be the signatory's fingerprint rather than someone else's, but if Badham was holding the paper still for Hutchinson to sign (if this helped him if he was unaccustomed to signing much?) i would imagine Badham would be standing either at the front of Hutchinson, which would mean he could have left a print from his left hand, or, if he was standing behind, maybe to the right of Hutchinson and kind of leaning over his shoulder holding down the paper, it would be a print from his right hand.

It seems from the evidence, without hearing more from Crystal, the fingerprint isn't conclusive evidence, or has not been proven to be conclusive as yet. I hope Crystal will enlighten us further on how she came to her conclusions regarding the documents, but appreciate she is very busy and this is not her priority right now.

It is still very interesting and a great new angle on the Hutchinson question!

BTW, newbie here, how do we know for certain that JtR was right-handed? Is it a question of the how the wounds were inflicted? If someone can point me to a thread/article which explains this i'd be grateful.

hope everyone is having a good day

[DVV]

Right gentlemen.

Can be a Brit.
Can't be left-handed.

About fingerprints...
Well, who has sticky hands here around ?

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

But what if the fingerprint emanated from Badham, who certainly handled the document during and after Hutchinson's interview? A similar criterion would also apply to Abberline, of course, to say nothing of any number of pen-pushers at Commercial Street Police Station or indeed the Home Office.

... or indeed 20th Century researchers! Astute observations, Garry - particularly your closing comment:

I would point out that an implication of profound importance appears to have been overlooked. Whoever he was, the Whitechapel Murderer was, beyond any reasonable doubt, right-handed. Hence, if it can be established that Hutchinson was left-handed, there exists no realistic possibility that he could have been Jack the Ripper.

[Sam Flynn]

Forgive me, but I don`t follow the above statement. Would you mind elaborating ?

Certainly, Jon - it's just that what might come across as smooth monologues in inquest/trial transcripts and press interviews might well have been somewhat more "stop/start" in reality. This would be especially true where non-professional witnesses (members of the public, victims' family and friends) are in the question. In some instances it seems certain that some accounts have received the "gloss" of a scribe, whether in terms of providing a precis or otherwise filling in the action for us. Note that I'm not suggesting for one moment that details were made up as a matter of course.

One thing that strikes me about otherwise faithful dramatic reconstructions of the case (documentaries and the like) is that, whereas they commendably use the transcripts verbatim, they often have the actors or voice-overs pouring forth a stream of uninterrupted speech. I doubt that this would have been the impression we'd have had if we'd been there at the time, or if the proceedings had by some miracle been recorded on wax cylinders.

[Jon Guy]

It's something that we need to be very aware of when reading Court records and press reports, as well.

Hi Sam

Forgive me, but I don`t follow the above statement. Would you mind elaborating ?

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Crystal.

Back in either 1991 or 1992, a document examiner, acting on my behalf, conducted an analysis of the signature appended to the first page of Hutchinson's police statement. Her conclusion, based upon pressure points and the angle of the nib on the paper, was that Hutchinson was right-handed. If I understand you correctly, however, a fingerprint on the second page has led you to infer that Hutchinson was left-handed.

Given your stated view that Hutchinson authored all three of his signatures on this document, there must, by implication, be a conflict of opinion regarding the signature on page one. It occurs to me, therefore, that this element of your analysis hinges on the provenance of the page two fingerprint. But what if the fingerprint emanated from Badham, who certainly handled the document during and after Hutchinson's interview? A similar criterion would also apply to Abberline, of course, to say nothing of any number of pen-pushers at Commercial Street Police Station or indeed the Home Office.

Should anyone assume that I am merely being mischievious in this context, I would point out that an implication of profound importance appears to have been overlooked. Whoever he was, the Whitechapel Murderer was, beyond any reasonable doubt, right-handed. Hence, if it can be established that Hutchinson was left-handed, there exists no realistic possibility that he could have been Jack the Ripper.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Sam Flynn]

A couple of tiny points-the prints aren't faded

Faded enough to have evaded the scanning process, evidently - which was what I said.

and I know what your point is. You're still wrong.

No, I'm not - and research backs me up.

Triumphalist? Moi? Surely you jest, Sam Flynn? A couple of tiny points-the prints aren't faded, and I know what your point is. You're still wrong.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks Baz - I think it fills in a few blanks and increases our view somewhat. Originals will do that...

See, Sam Flynn???

Your triumphalism seems rather premature, Crystal. The discovery of faded fingerprints that weren't picked up by a scanner doesn't mean that originals are essential in all contexts. Handling an original might allow us to detect some etiolated smudges that bypassed the scanning process, and find similar such physical quirks on the paper, but it hardly "increases our view somewhat" in terms of examining the writing itself. Research posted on the 1911 thread demonstrated that, in terms of comparing signatures, 2nd generation photocopies were good enough to allow correct assessments to be made to a very high degree of accuracy.

I'm genuinely pleased that you've discovered something of which we weren't aware (how can we tell if they were the signatory's fingerprints, by the way?). However, that discovery should by no means be used to imply that my previous arguments about originals versus scans were incorrect, when I was arguing in the specific context of a signature-comparison exercise. That's a different ball-game entirely.

I'm probably having one of my derrr moments, but how can you tell that
there were pauses in a written document?

Gary

Hi Gary,

I have no training as a graphologist, so this is just my educated guess, but I would imagine that the pressure applied judged by the ink left behind is one way, the continuity of the pressure and consistency of character shape and size and spacing, smudging, character angle changes, irregular character or word spacing...those kinds of criteria.

I hope that Crystals fine analysis answers some questions people have about what is assuredly the most disappointing witness interaction of the Ripper cases for the Police. a Suspect with details so precise and so detailed......and yet apparently, so fictional....

Cheers all.

[m_w_r]

Corrections and Clarifications

Crystal -

Terrific work, but just to clarify:

1. The statement reads: "I met the Murdered woman", not "I saw the Murdered woman". (p.1)

2. The statement reads: "he then placed his right hand around her shoulders", not "he then placed his right hand on her shoulders". (p.1)

3. The statement reads: "with a kind of a strap round it", not "with a kind of strap round it". (p.1)

4. The signature you could not read on p.3 is that of Inspector Ernest Ellisdon.

5. The signature below that is that of Superintendent Thomas Arnold.

Regards,

Mark

[DVV]

Hi David - in response to your questions, the prints are to the upper right of the second page signature. Pages 1, 2 and 3 are on separate sheets. The endorsement (which means lit. on the back, as you will doubtless know) is on the reverse of page 3. If you would care to send me your email details via PM, David, I will send you some images - I am allowed to do that under copyright legislation and would be happy to do so.
Cx

So many thanks Crystal,
just pm you.

Amitiés,
David

[gary]

A very very interesting piece of work there Crystal well done !!!

It's great to have a breakdown of all the pauses and amendments and the right handed fingerprint.
Well done again - im proud of ya !!!

I'm probably having one of my derrr moments, but how can you tell that
there were pauses in a written document?

Gary