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  • hutchinsons suspect

    while i belive joseph Barnett and George Hutchison to be the most likely suspects.George derscribing the man he claimed to have seen would tie in with Dr Tumbletys appearence who was known as a bit of a dandy at the time.what is known of his whereabouts at the time of the murders?As for other suspects would you also look athe nightwatchmen of the common lodging houses?

  • #2
    Hi Newton.

    Call me cynical, but most 'suspects' appear to have attained such status purely because they happened to be alive during the Ripper's operational timeframe – and I would include Joe Barnett in that category.

    Whoever he was, the Whitechapel Murderer was a sadosexual deviant whose home almost certainly lay within his criminal range. Hence it may be inferred that he was heterosexual and lived locally. This, of course, would tend to exclude Tumblety as well as a number of other Ripper candidates.

    As for Mary Kelly's Jewish-looking pick-up, he was, in all probability, a figment of Hutchinson's imagination. Despite the man's highly distinctive appearance, no-one other than Hutchinson appears to have seen him on the night in question. Similarly, Hutchinson was clearly unaware that Kelly was very much 'under the influence' when the two purportedly met on Commercial Street shortly before Kelly's death. This being the case, the meeting itself begins to look extremely doubtful. And if the meeting between Kelly and Hutchinson did not take place, it also seems likely that the exchange between Kelly and her distinguished punter was nothing more than invention on Hutchinson's part.

    Good hunting.

    Garry Wroe.
    Last edited by Garry Wroe; 08-01-2009, 03:03 AM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by newton1878 View Post
      As for other suspects would you also look athe nightwatchmen of the common lodging houses?
      Well, yeah, I would. That's just the sort of guy I'd be apt to finger for the crimes . If you can identify any of them, I'll put them at the top of my list. As for the other suspects you name, they are, in my view, non-starters.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Garry,
        How do we know that 'The Jewish man' was a figment of Hutchinsons imagination? is it because Bob Hintons 'From Hell' suggests all kinds of skullduggery.
        And as for kelly being highly intoxicated, i have reservations, she did not venture out that night until gone 9am, and returned home before midnight, and by oral history was desperate for money, so its highly unlikely that she lived it up, making it highly likely that she was no more then 'Spreeish'[ as Hutch described].
        However we should not forget that Eddowes was also penniless, yet wound up roaring drunk, so we have to consider that the whitechapel murderer may have befriended his potential victims, in order to easily gain their trust on the next encounter.
        He could have arranged to meet them the following day , with the suggestion that more good times lay ahead, and bumped into eddowes after she left the cells.
        And as for kelly, whats to say that she wasnt supplied with drink on the thursday evening, and the man Maxwell [ claimed] saw was infact waiting to engage kelly when she returned on the street that morning.
        Those poor women would never have suspected any danger, they were still alive , and surely would not have been at the hands of 'Jack'.
        I have always believed in premediation when it came to these murders.
        Regards Richard.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Richard.

          First, just to correct what appears to be a common misconception, the 'Hutchinson theory' did not originate with Bob Hinton, nor indeed with the work of Brian Marriner which, I believe, inspired Bob's interest in Hutchinson. Though it is somewhat remiss on my part, I've never read From Hell so am in no way qualified to judge the merits or otherwise of Bob's conclusions. As such, you may rest assured that any opinions I express are based upon years of case-related research combined with what I'd like to think is a dispassionate interpretation of the available evidence.

          In this context, although there is no certainty that the Jewish-looking suspect was an invention on Hutchinson's part, a number of evidential factors are indicative that this was indeed the case. For example, it was established beyond doubt that Kelly spent the final afternoon of her life drinking with Maria Harvey, a binge that concluded only when the two women returned to Kelly's room at about 7:30 pm. There, Kelly was visited first by Lizzie Albrook then Joe Barnett, who departed, leaving Kelly alone, at approximately 8:15 pm. Contrary to some of the confused accounts which have entered the case as fact, the next positive sighting occurred at 11:45 pm when Kelly, in the company of Blotchy, encountered Mary Ann Cox, who subsequently stated that Kelly was so drunk she was barely able to utter a simple goodnight.

          So, despite the reality that Kelly was very much the worse for wear shortly before midnight, Hutchinson maintained that, barely two hours later, she was no more than "a little spreeish." Since both scenarios cannot possibly be true, I would suggest that Hutchinson's version of events is not only implausible, but utterly at odds with the evidence that emerged from several independent sources. Hence, based upon the available weight of evidence, I would contend that Hutchinson could not have met Kelly on Commercial Street as claimed, otherwise he would have been aware of her degree of drunkenness. And if the meeting with Kelly was an invention, significant doubt is cast upon the alleged scenario involving the Jewish-looking punter doubt that is further reinforced by the seeming reality that no-one other than Hutchinson sighted this most distinctive of individuals.

          Regards.

          Garry Wroe.
          Last edited by Garry Wroe; 08-01-2009, 09:13 PM.

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          • #6
            Hello Garry,
            Originally posted by Garry Wroe View Post
            For example, it was established beyond doubt that Kelly spent the final afternoon of her life drinking with Maria Harvey, a binge that concluded only when the two women returned to Kelly's room at about 7:30 pm.
            Where is it recorded that Kelly had spent the final afternoon/early evening of her life on a drunken binge with Maria Harvey?
            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              Hello Garry,
              Where is it recorded that Kelly had spent the final afternoon/early evening of her life on a drunken binge with Maria Harvey?
              If it is written anywhere Sam I hope it was designated as fiction. Maria herself said they spent all afternoon in Marys room. That, coupled with recently washed clothing might make some consider domestic chores with Maria her last afternoons entertainment....she is given some coins by Maria as well.

              And the laundry belonging to her clients is left in a room that we can assume was left unlocked or on the spring latch by Mary when she did go out, cause her and Blotchy just push it open when they arrive. So it would not be left in her room for "safety's sake", as has been suggested why Maria left the laundry in Marys room that night.....because Mary left the door unlocked.

              Im wondering whether the door was left open so that Maria might retrieve her laundry later that night while Mary was out.

              Cheers Sam, all.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by perrymason View Post
                Im wondering whether the door was left open so that Maria might retrieve her laundry later that night while Mary was out.
                Possibly, Mike, but - alas! - it has little to do with the subject of this thread. (Good suggestion, by the way, but perhaps it's best not to discuss it further here.)
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Sam.

                  The afternoon of drinking was detailed by Maria Harvey in at least two press interviews. Unfortunately, she doesn't appear to have been questioned about this whilst giving evidence at the inquest hearing, which is all the more frustrating given another newspaper claim that she and Kelly went off to Leman Street together in the early evening in order to earn some money.

                  Regards.

                  Garry Wroe.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi All.
                    It just goes to show, that we are completely lost when it comes to possible events on the eve/morning of that fateful night.
                    I would suggest that kelly was not drunk at the time of Barnetts visit, he makes no mention of it, and Praters meeting at the court entrance with Mary, makes no mention.
                    The latter encounter i strongly believe happened, her account is too realistic to be untrue.
                    That being the case was Mrs Coxs account of blotchy true?
                    At 9pm Prater refers to kelly wearing her jacket and bonnet, remarking that she [ prater] did not own such items, yet less then three hours later, Cox has her dressed differently.
                    Question...[1] Was Prater lying?
                    [2] Was Cox lying?
                    [3] Did kelly return to her room to 'dressdown'?
                    Did Blotchy even exist? after all no evidence was found in her room of any such occurance.
                    We simply do not know, I would suggest that after Barnett left at 8pm, kelly prepeared herself for a night out, and she left her room around 9pm, engaging Prater at the entrance to Dorset Street, she was then wearing her black jacket and bonnet, and i feel that she returned home alone around midnight, and singing commenced.
                    I have a strong feeling that kelly was paronoid about spending time alone in that room, and ventured out on the streets again around 2am, hoping to attract a suitable client who would stay the night.
                    And she did just that, in the shape of Astracan... did he kill her?
                    I would say most certainly not, kelly meeting her death around 9am on the ninth.
                    Regards Richard.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
                      Hi All.
                      It just goes to show, that we are completely lost when it comes to possible events on the eve/morning of that fateful night.
                      I would suggest that kelly was not drunk at the time of Barnetts visit, he makes no mention of it, and Praters meeting at the court entrance with Mary, makes no mention.
                      The latter encounter i strongly believe happened, her account is too realistic to be untrue.
                      That being the case was Mrs Coxs account of blotchy true?
                      At 9pm Prater refers to kelly wearing her jacket and bonnet, remarking that she [ prater] did not own such items, yet less then three hours later, Cox has her dressed differently.
                      Question...[1] Was Prater lying?
                      [2] Was Cox lying?
                      [3] Did kelly return to her room to 'dressdown'?
                      Did Blotchy even exist? after all no evidence was found in her room of any such occurance.
                      We simply do not know, I would suggest that after Barnett left at 8pm, kelly prepeared herself for a night out, and she left her room around 9pm, engaging Prater at the entrance to Dorset Street, she was then wearing her black jacket and bonnet, and i feel that she returned home alone around midnight, and singing commenced.
                      I have a strong feeling that kelly was paronoid about spending time alone in that room, and ventured out on the streets again around 2am, hoping to attract a suitable client who would stay the night.
                      And she did just that, in the shape of Astracan... did he kill her?
                      I would say most certainly not, kelly meeting her death around 9am on the ninth.
                      Regards Richard.
                      But surely the singing is confirmed by a number of people and would suggest that Mary was entertaining blotchy face at this time.

                      Pirate

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                      • #12
                        Hi Pirate,
                        Agreed Kellys singing was overheard, but did anyone hear conversation, or a mans voice?
                        Answer No, is it not therefore possible that she was singing aloud alone....hardly a rare event is it?
                        We have only Coxs word , and she did give two different accounts, of where she witnessed the event.
                        a] whilst following them up the court.
                        b] whilst standing at her door in the court awaiting her man to come home from the pub.
                        And of course the clothing worn by kelly differs from Praters observation , less then three hours earlier.
                        Every reason to express doubt ..in my opinion.
                        Regards Richard.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Is this George Hutchinson

                          Found this printed in The Times, Friday, Sep 02, 1887...............
                          Attached Files

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Paddy,

                            He's too old to be our Hutchinson.

                            Mike
                            huh?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Richard

                              Yes some interesting questions on which we might speculate.

                              I’m not convinced that Kelly would be singing to herself for such a long time. The scenario of bringing back a client and entertaining him with a song and drinking his beer just seems a logical scenario to me. But perhaps Kelly did have some music haul connections and was just practicing?

                              I don’t find it odd that Blotchy wasn’t singing. But one would have thought that he might have talked loudly on his beer.

                              Re: The jug. I would have thought blotchy would take this with him. Would there not have been a deposit on the bottle?

                              RE: Cox story. Yes agreed there does appear some elaboration in the telling. Although she seems to keep to the same basic story.

                              My view is it largely depends on your view of MJK as a prostitute. Was she working hard that night? Entertained blotchy and back on the street ASAP. Or was she simply chancing a free beer and a little money after an evening drinking?

                              For my money Blotchy is the most likely killer. But I think your observations most interesting.

                              All the best

                              Pirate

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