The Times report

[DVV]

Hello Suzi,
according to Hutch himself (The Times and more clearly The Star, 14 nov), who apparently said: "I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes."
Clear enough, I believe.
But I made a mistake stating that Hutch did not say anything about the situation there, because he also said, like Mrs Cox, that there was no light nor noise.
Apologies.
DVV

[DVV]

Hello Suzi,
according to Hutch himself (The Times and more clearly The Star, 14 nov), who apparently said: "I went up the court and stayed there a couple of minutes."
Clear enough, I believe.
But I made a mistake stating that Hutch did not say anything about the situation there, because he also said, like Mrs Cox, that there was no light nor noise.
Apologies.
DVV

[Suzi]

So Hutch walked into the yard, but unlike Mary Cox, who stated that there was no light nor noise in MK's room, he is very elusive about what he saw or did not see there.
A definitely puzzling witness.

Amitiés
DVV

Who says Hutch walked INTO the yard?
Mary Cox's statement is fine and so is Elizabeth Praters' trouble is nobody took the trouble to lurk long enough to hear the bit between the singin' and the silence!!! (If that was relevant of course!!)

[DVV]

So Hutch walked into the yard, but unlike Mary Cox, who stated that there was no light nor noise in MK's room, he is very elusive about what he saw or did not see there.
A definitely puzzling witness.

Amitiés
DVV

[Suzi]

Hi Sam!!!
Yep at the end of the day- [as opposed to the end of The Court]...I reckon if the lodging house opposite had a doorway to shelter in that would have been fine and would tie in with Sarah's statement. Personally I wouldn't be lurking in the entrance/archway to Millers Court- apart from the obvious 'traffic' and getting in the way that seems a daft thing to do when there's a perfectly good 'observation' point opposite where you can just 'slide ' away from if needs be!!

He couldn't have been lurking IN the Court (By the Pump) etc because he'd have been seen without a doubt...unless he did it on a regular basis..Ooooooh it's only "George the Pump "(!!!) again and ignored him

Anyway......... Maybe he hoped to just
avoid detection.....Oooops...darned people coming and going after arguing with partners!!! !)

Suz x
I still think it's all in the language- 'Going dahn the court ' etc etc
Meaning going Dahn to the entrance or where he knew the entrance of it to be - Like 'Going Dahn the road' etc
- or maybe going dahn Romford

he he just been boring hubby senseless with this- If-I said 'I'm goin' dahn Southsea' I dont specify where but he gets the gist.... Now if Hutch said he was 'Going dahn the Court' the same thing applies........doesn't it....
xx

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Suzi

It's the 'to the court' and 'into the court' that worries me

As I've suggested, it's tricky to imagine that he'd have been able to "see if he could see them" from anywhere other than the court(yard) itself. The Dorset Street entrance to the passageway could hardly be considered "the court", and neither could the tunnel leading from it, and Hutchinson would have to have passed through both in "going to the court". It's worth remembering that Hutchinson refers separately to "the court" and "the corner of Miller's Court" in his press statement, therefore, seen in this light, his "going to the court" may have been precisely equivalent to his "going to the court-yard".

[Normy]

Hi Suzi, all
Wasn't it pouring with rain? The entrance to the court had an archway, would have been good shelter.
It's where I would choose to stand, either that or he'd have to rely on his hat!

[Suzi]

Hi Normy- It's fun when you get into the tide isn't it!!!! (apart from the ocassional RIP!)

Hi Gareth- It's the 'to the court' and 'into the court' that worries me- You have to think following Hutch's way of thinking/speaking whether he meant ...in the vernacular...'Oi went dahn the Court' meaning he went somewhere in the vicinity or just Dahn to it (the Court entrance)-probably opposite though- but maybe lurking around the edges of the archway-but close enough to 'Ave a look' and 'stand guard' [for whatever reason]-oddly for that amount of time! ('When all night long a chap remains ' lurking dangerously here in the brain!!)

.....Mind you ,as I said earlier there was only one way out of MC (as far as we know)- so a lurk would make some sort of sense...IF we knew why he lurked for so long.. and why......of course if we did.................

Suz xx

[Normy]

Hi all
I'd like to thank everyone for their input and comments.
Cheers.
Being new to this it seems that when comparing two statements can bring forth such strong feeling and conviction. I look at the rest of the material and feel like I'm a ping pong ball on the surface of the ocean, being carried in every direction.

Ah well.

[Suzi]

Ben sssssssssssssssssssssssssh

[Sam Flynn]

Absolutely, and yet "couple of minutes" did appear in the press. We seem to have Hutchinson remaing in one location in the police report, and two in the 14th November press reports.

The fact that Badham's transcript, unlike the press statement, doesn't seem to differentiate between inside and outside the court is only a matter of trivial detail. It just doesn't add up that the police statement is somehow "lighter" on incriminating detail at this point - in fact, the opposite is true. Hutchinson's police statement, if read literally, places him even longer in the more incriminating position of being inside Miller's Court than do the versions in the press.

He seemed to differentiate between "to the court" and "up the court", the latter meaning into it, the former presumably meaning outside it.

As I said earlier, his stated purpose - as recorded in his police statement - was to "see if he could see them". He could not have done so if he'd been stationed outside the court, therefore his "to the court" is synonymous with his going into the court. He wouldn't have been able to "see if he could see them" otherwise.

There are, in my view, significant discrepancies between Hutchinson's police and press statements, but this ain't one of them.

[Ben]

Hi Suzi,

It may well have happened (I sneakily suspect it may have done), but my argument is that no mention of this was made until after the police interview.

Best!
Ben

[Suzi]

Hi Gareth and Ben-

Just thinking about it....I reckon Hutch OK followed Mary and chummy down Dorset St and then (for whatever reason-positioned himself outside Crossinghams to observe....again for whatever reason... There was no reason to go into the court to see anyone coming out was there -there was one way in and one way out (Unless there was a sneaky way through the upstairs through the windows and a potential alleyway/stairway...a la Oliver!!! - unlikely!!!) Oooooooooh Mrs Prater may have to put a word in here!!! -and...now if Hutch had gone into the court and door listened etc etc then .... ......NO!! that didn't happen!

Suz x

[Ben]

Even if he'd pressed himself up against Crossinghams' wall for the duration, he'd only have been some ten yards away from the entrance to Miller's Court anyway. The fact that he'd practically admitted to having the place under surveillance for such a long time was damning enough.

Agreed.

Nowhere in the police report does he say he was there for "a couple of minutes" - quite the contrary.

Absolutely, and yet "couple of minutes" did appear in the press. We seem to have Hutchinson remaing in one location in the police report, and two in the 14th November press reports. He seemed to differentiate between "to the court" and "up the court", the latter meaning into it, the former presumably meaning outside it. If so, it would lend weight to Hutchinson having initially watched and waited outside the court for 45 minutes (during which time, Lewis passed and saw someone doing precisely that - watching and waiting).

It would also mean that the actual "entering" of Miller's Court was introduced for the first time on 14th November. Why this was mentioned for the first time to the press and who was responsible is anyone's guess, though I'd be fibbing outrageously if I said I wasn't a teeny bit swayed by Wroe's suggestion that:

Uppermost in his mind was the possibility that he might unknowingly have been observed when entering the interconnecting passage, or indeed as he lurked outside Kelly’s room. (Mary Ann Cox, it should be noted, returned to the court at around three o’clock and may have been seen by Hutchinson.) Since any such revelation would have compromised both his story and his credibility, thereby inviting suspicion, he introduced a number of variants when subsequently speaking to the press. Whilst undoubtedly risky, this was an approach that at least provided an element of insurance in context of the unknown witness factor.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Gareth,

All sources agree that he loitered in the general vicinity for at least 45 minutes, I accept that, but I don't think "general vicinity" is quite sufficient for the purposes of a police report on a murder.

Even if he'd pressed himself up against Crossinghams' wall for the duration, he'd only have been some ten yards away from the entrance to Miller's Court anyway. The fact that he'd practically admitted to having the place under surveillance for such a long time was damning enough.

If he loitered directly outside her home for a full 45 minutes, that's far more significant than waiting outside the court for a comparable length of time and then popping in for a casual "couple of minutes" before departing.

Nowhere in the police report does he say he was there for "a couple of minutes". On the contrary, its ambiguity lies in the very direction that you perceive as the most damning: "I went to the court to see if I could see them, but could not. I stood there for three quarters of an hour". In other words, it is Hutchinson's police statement, rather than the press versions, that places him in the court for the longest time, if one takes it literally.