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Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

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  • Originally posted by caz View Post
    Hi All,

    Would it not be a bit of a coincidence if, on this particular night, Kelly's door jammed shut in such a way that meant anyone inside would have had no choice but to exit through the window? So if Kelly had gone back alone, without Blotchy, and had banged the door shut, she'd have been in this position when she woke in the morning and tried to go out?

    Wasn't it thought at one time that you could always open the door from the inside, but it would be locked to anyone on the outside unless they had a key? When the key went missing, I had assumed Kelly and Barnett would have left the door on the latch when going out, so they could get back in or, if it shut behind them and locked them out, Barnett could lean in through the window and unlock it from the inside.

    If the killer did escape through the window, was it perhaps on purpose, after putting a chair against the door to prevent anyone from entering too easily? He probably wouldn't know if anyone had a key, or that the door would have locked automatically if he had only gone out that way and shut it firmly behind him. After all, Kelly didn't have a key when taking Blotchy back, and they didn't get in through the window, so he'd have assumed the door was always unlocked.

    Love,

    Caz
    X
    I think that Id agree with the reaching in to release, or engage, the latch was possible for Barnett Caz. And I also think that when Barnett was there they left the latch off so the door would lock behind them when they left. Mary obviously didn't do that on her last night though.

    I believe leaving the door locked behind you would be quite simple, just disengage the latch first, and creep out. Simon has suggested that the door wasn't locked....I wonder whether you believe Simon that the door was locked when the crime had originally been discovered, and the unlocked state at around 1:30, was a result of the door being opened and the room being entered before 1:30?
    Michael Richards

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
      Look at this, from the DT of the 13:th of November:

      she turned round and banged the door.

      The man closed the door.

      One has to wonder!
      Most other papers report that the man banged the door the first time, although a couple say only that the door was closed. So I suspect the Daily News had it wrong on this point.

      Comment


      • Are we sure there was nothing worth stealing? Maria Harvey - She left an overcoat, two dirty cotton shirts, a boy's shirt, a girl's white petticoat and a black crepe bonnet in the room.
        Doesn't sound like much? But to a destitute Victorian these items down at a pawn shop could be the difference between a night on the streets and the couple of pennies needed for a night in a lodging house.
        Also there was a tin bath under Mary's bed. She might have wanted to make sure that didn't get taken because i feel Mary supplemented what little income she could earn off the streets by washing items of clothing [Two dirty cotton shirts].

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        • Do you think the boy's shirt left by Maria Harvey may have belonged to the young child who allegedly lived with Kelly?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by caz View Post
            Hi All,

            Would it not be a bit of a coincidence if, on this particular night, Kelly's door jammed shut in such a way that meant anyone inside would have had no choice but to exit through the window? So if Kelly had gone back alone, without Blotchy, and had banged the door shut, she'd have been in this position when she woke in the morning and tried to go out?

            Wasn't it thought at one time that you could always open the door from the inside, but it would be locked to anyone on the outside unless they had a key? When the key went missing, I had assumed Kelly and Barnett would have left the door on the latch when going out, so they could get back in or, if it shut behind them and locked them out, Barnett could lean in through the window and unlock it from the inside.

            If the killer did escape through the window, was it perhaps on purpose, after putting a chair against the door to prevent anyone from entering too easily? He probably wouldn't know if anyone had a key, or that the door would have locked automatically if he had only gone out that way and shut it firmly behind him. After all, Kelly didn't have a key when taking Blotchy back, and they didn't get in through the window, so he'd have assumed the door was always unlocked.

            Love,

            Caz
            X
            Hi Caz
            I agree, seems like mary and blotchy had no problem getting in, so the door was left unlocked. The door may have been jammed shut after they went in, but I doubt it. The door just happens to jam on the night shes murdered, forcing the killer to go out the window? what are the chances?

            and anyway-I doubt he would go through a broken window with shards to get cut on and possible making a racket. which means he would have to open the window get out-and I doubt he would then, once out, worry about shutting the window. and if you could get out through the door-why chance being seen leaving, climbing out the window?


            re the chair against the door-I doubt it. he could probably see that the door locked, or they locked it themselves behind them. plus I think it would be documented by the police if a door was blocked by a chair.


            I think most likely, there was a way to lock the door as you left, even if you didn't have a key.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              Most other papers report that the man banged the door the first time, although a couple say only that the door was closed. So I suspect the Daily News had it wrong on this point.
              Okay - the ones I checked had a wording that did not give away who closed the door, like "the door was then closed". Thanks for filling it in!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                Okay - the ones I checked had a wording that did not give away who closed the door, like "the door was then closed". Thanks for filling it in!
                Actually, ignore my earlier post, I may have been at the eggnog! It's pretty even;

                Daily News
                I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door

                Daily Telegraph
                I said "Good night, Mary," and she turned round and banged the door.

                ELA
                The deceased said "Good night, I am going to have a song," and then she banged the door.

                IPN
                followed them up into the court, and said, "Good nigh, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door

                MA
                I followed them up into the court, and said, "Good night, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door.

                PIP
                I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door.*

                St James Gazette
                The man slammed the door in the witness's face and the deceased wished her "Good night," and said she was going to have a song.

                Star
                He went with the deceased into her room, and I said "Good night, Mary." Thereupon the man turned round and banged the door, the deceased having answered me, in a drunken voice, "Good night, I'm going to have a song."

                Times
                The door was shut and witness heard the deceased singing

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                • https://www.artstation.com/artwork/B0WV9

                  The other option
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                    Actually, ignore my earlier post, I may have been at the eggnog! It's pretty even;

                    Daily News
                    I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door

                    Daily Telegraph
                    I said "Good night, Mary," and she turned round and banged the door.

                    ELA
                    The deceased said "Good night, I am going to have a song," and then she banged the door.

                    IPN
                    followed them up into the court, and said, "Good nigh, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door

                    MA
                    I followed them up into the court, and said, "Good night, Mary." She never turned round, and he banged the door.

                    PIP
                    I saw them both go into the house, and Mary Jane banged the door.*

                    St James Gazette
                    The man slammed the door in the witness's face and the deceased wished her "Good night," and said she was going to have a song.

                    Star
                    He went with the deceased into her room, and I said "Good night, Mary." Thereupon the man turned round and banged the door, the deceased having answered me, in a drunken voice, "Good night, I'm going to have a song."

                    Times
                    The door was shut and witness heard the deceased singing
                    Hm. Then perhaps all we can say is that it seems to have been a case of how it is easy enough to mistake the word "he" for "she"...? The rational thing to expect is that Cox was not forgetting who banged the door as she went along. The suggestion that she made it all up and made a mistake on account of that must be secondary, I´d say.

                    Thanks for clarifying, and enjoy your well deserved eggnog, Joshua!

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                      Hm. Then perhaps all we can say is that it seems to have been a case of how it is easy enough to mistake the word "he" for "she"...? !
                      I was thinking exactly the same.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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