Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Batman]

Possibly, but it's not certain that he was.

Could be Hutchinson also?

[Batman]

Anyway, I think you get the point. Someone was doing identification rounds. That means there is a conflict between officials claiming no one saw JtR or only saw his back and not his face and the fact investigators had someone being used to look at ripper candidates.

[Sam Flynn]

Could be Hutchinson also?

I'm not sure, because I haven't been able to find the press report that tells of the attempted Sadler identification.

[Sam Flynn]

That means there is a conflict between officials claiming no one saw JtR or only saw his back and not his face

Indeed, which is odd considering that more than one witness, Lawende included, was able to note their suspects' hair (facial or otherwise) and/or complexion.

and the fact investigators had someone being used to look at ripper candidates.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did but, if so, then chances are they'd have used a witness with a fixed address, like Lawende or Schwartz, as opposed to a dosser like Hutchinson, who was unlikely to have been easily traceable in the 1890s when the attempted IDs of Sadler and Kozminski would potentially have occurred.

That said, I can't recall any official record that these ID attempts really did happen.

[Fisherman]

Batman: Lawende was used to try and identify Sadler as JtR. That pretty much establishes that he was being used by investigators as a JtR witness.

Is that a proven thing? It is suggested as a possibility in my A to Z. Whichever, it does not exclude that other witnesses may have been tried before, and so we cannot say that Swanson must have spoken of Lawende. And keep in mind that he said that he did not think that he would be able to recognize the man he had seen in Dukes passage, meaning that he would be shredded by any lawyer worth his salt.

Therefore there is good evidence to suggest that Swanson was referring to the same witness but we don't even have to bring up Swanson and Kozminski to establish that Lawende is used to identify JtR because of Sadler.

There is a possibility, not good evidence.

That Sadler connection to Lawende identification means these ideas that JtR had not been seen or that Hutchinson must be ruled out because he describes a face and not the back, have to be dismissed as not good reasons.

I am going to need that source for the Sadler ID being made by Lawende. Is there a conclusive such source?

[Batman]

I'm not sure, because I haven't been able to find the press report that tells of the attempted Sadler identification.

Apparently, the source is Daily Telegraph, 18 Feb 1891.

It refers to the person who saw a couple at the corner of the passage leading into Mitre-Square.

Footnotes 81 and 82 in Begg's The Facts.

[Fisherman]

Fish,

We did some work on Bowyer over on JTRForums. Debs found an army record for a very likely candidate who had spent much of his military career in India.

I obtained a copy of his death cert:

Death Certificate of Thomas Bowyer:

When/where: 22/4/1889 4, The Polygon (Clapham)

Name: Thomas Bowyer

Sex: Male

Age: 40 years

Occupation: Army pensioner late of the Field Artillery

Cause: Bright's disease exhaustion

Informant: Annie Bowyer, Widow, 4, The Polygon

His military service in India:

25/11/68 - 20/12/73
9/2/75 - 10/12/78
11/12/78 - 1/1/80 (Afghanistan)
2/1/80 - 8/3/85
9/3/85 - 20/4/85

Thanks, Gary! So he was 39 in 1888? Not all that much, I dare say. Then again, if he perished in 1889 from Bright´s disease, he may not have looked all that sprightly in 88...

[Batman]

I am going to need that source for the Sadler ID being made by Lawende. Is there a conclusive such source?

I have referenced Begg's references but the point is this. Someone was being used to ID JtR. Meaning obviously claims about witnesses not seeing his face and only from the rear or not at all, can't be right, can they?

[Michael W Richards]

Finally, there is of course the matter of how we should accept that a man like Dew is telling the truth until we can prove the contrary.

I believe we have Dews description of what he saw in room 13 to use as a reason to pause when accepting Dew verbatim.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Gary! So he was 39 in 1888? Not all that much, I dare say.

But not a youth by any stretch of the imagination, and he certainly looks well-worn in the one contemporary illustration we have of him.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: Indeed, but I don't buy such excuses. Bowyer was reported as being a servant in McCarthy's shop, and my guess is that Dew heard/read about this and assumed that Bowyer was some kind of shop assistant or errand-boy. If, as he claimed, he'd been at the station with Inspr Reid when Bowyer arrived, and had actually accompanied him to Miller's Court, he'd have known better.

Your ... guess? I see. Well, much as it is possible, it remains a guess only. And I believe that Dew would not want to run the risk as being exposed as a liar. Let´s not forget that he may have been at the station but did not actually see the man who brought the news - that too is a possibility. One of many, I dare say.

No pensioned soldier who'd served time in India would have been a "young fellow", and what contemporary illustrations of Bowyer we have show him as full-moustached and distinctly middle-aged.

If the likeness is good and if it really IS Bowyer on the drawing, then yes, he looks nothing like youthful. But we have Gary Barnett saying that it seems he may have been 39 at the time, which is not very old, and we have papers and Dew alike saying that he was a youth, so there can be no certainty.

Was he? I think his memoirs clearly exaggerate his involvement in the Kelly case to the extent that I'm inclined not to trust them at all.

Yes, you guess that was what happened. Then again you also guess that the torso killer must have lived in West London, right?

Well, we know he wasn't telling the truth about Bowyer.

We actually don´t, that´s the whole point. There is a lot speaking for you being correct, but there is actually material to the contrary too.
At the end of the day, we can all see that the facts in Dews book that can be checked are almost always correct, and so there is every reason to trust him on the Hutchinson matter.

[Fisherman]

I have referenced Begg's references but the point is this. Someone was being used to ID JtR. Meaning obviously claims about witnesses not seeing his face and only from the rear or not at all, can't be right, can they?

Doesn´t it say that nobody got a "good look" at the killer? Like how Lawende saw his man (who need NOT be the killer to begin with) and his face, but not good enough to be able to recognize him.

It must be understood that the police were grasping at straws. Whatever possibility they had, they would likely take it, perhaps including identifications made by people who had said that they would probably not recognize somebody.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn: Indeed, but I don't buy such excuses. Bowyer was reported as being a servant in McCarthy's shop, and my guess is that Dew heard/read about this and assumed that Bowyer was some kind of shop assistant or errand-boy. If, as he claimed, he'd been at the station with Inspr Reid when Bowyer arrived, and had actually accompanied him to Miller's Court, he'd have known better.

Your ... guess?

Informed and reasoned opinion.

No pensioned soldier who'd served time in India would have been a "young fellow", and what contemporary illustrations of Bowyer we have show him as full-moustached and distinctly middle-aged.

If the likeness is good and if it really IS Bowyer on the drawing, then yes, he looks nothing like youthful. But we have Gary Barnett saying that it seems he may have been 39 at the time, which is not very old, and we have papers and Dew alike saying that he was a youth, so there can be no certainty.

The papers said he was a youth? Don't think so. Anyway, he wasn't a youth, so Dew was wrong.

At the end of the day, we can all see that the facts in Dews book that can be checked are almost always correct, and so there is every reason to trust him on the Hutchinson matter.

There are more facts that can be checked and proven wrong.

Let's face it, you need Dew to be trustworthy so that you can get both Astrakhan Man and Hutchinson out of the way to make room for you-know-who. Well, Dew isn't trustworthy in connection with the Ripper case, and demonstrably so.

[Fisherman]

But not a youth by any stretch of the imagination, and he certainly looks well-worn in the one contemporary illustration we have of him.

Yup, he does. If that was him and if the likeness was a good one. It is a drawing, not a photo, Gareth. And - once again - it was not just Dew who called him a youth, so there is something going on here that we do not fully understand, I´d say.

And - again - it does not undermine how Dew is likely to be correct on Hutchinson.

[Sam Flynn]

Yup, he does. If that was him and if the likeness was a good one.

Are we looking at the same illustration? The one I have in mind makes Bowyer look like a ravaged scarecrow.

Besides, he categorically wasn't a youth!!!. Dew was wrong.