Possible reason for Hutch coming forward

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

This part of Hutchinson’s statement has always concerned me. I may be alone in this?

“I stooped down and looked him in the face. He looked at me stern.”

This isn’t normal behaviour (whatever normal is of course ). It’s always seemed to me like an attempt by Hutchinson to validate himself as a witness. He doesn’t mention Kelly commenting on this behaviour but you would have thought that she’d have been non-too-pleased at H intimidating a client and potentially scaring him off. I could imagine Mary telling him to p*#* off!

Also, is it really likely that Hutchinson, who lived hand to mouth in dosshouses, could afford to give her a few shillings now a then?

For thirty years or so I’ve struggled to avoid the impression that Hutchinson was just a nobody who wanted to feel important, or like a generous benefactor and maybe earn a few pints for his story while he was at it. I could be wrong of course but it’s hard for me to think otherwise

That’s more than likely all he was. And yes the whole looked in his face bit, is just another way for hutch to bend over backward in his description of the aman story to seem very credible to the police.

Great look at his face, incredible detailed description, looked like a Jew, thinks he saw him before, knows where he lives. Bullshit.

[Abby Normal]

I didn't single this out Gareth - you did!
If you recall, it was you who claimed she didn't say she saw anyone pass up the court.

The press coverage taken as a whole is quite consistent with Lewis walking down Dorset St. behind this couple, seeing them pass up the court, then when she reached the court, as she said, she saw a man standing opposite, and there was no-one in the court, which there wouldn't be had this couple gone into one of the rooms - exactly what Hutchinson claimed they did.
Of course this couple will be "further on", when Lewis is walking behind them, so that is perfectly correct too.




The press coverage IS her official testimony, which is better detailed that the court version. Ignoring the reason why this happens, especially when it has been explained to you several times, does you no favors.

This couple entering the court was not important at the time her testimony was being given as no-body believed either had a role to play in this murder, not forgetting the fact Lewis had no idea the drunk & hatless woman was Mary Kelly herself.



Hutchinson does admit to walking up to her room to stand and listen, but could hear nothing. So, he must have gone up the passage to stand outside her door.
Each newspaper provided different parts of her testimony, edited down, while the court recorder only concerned himself with select points of interest to the coroner.
All the versions need to be put together to obtain the complete story.

Reporters who covered the inquests had to rely on shorthand or pay scribes to transcribe the testimony, and then they faced a choice between paraphrase and direct quotation. Whichever method they selected, not even the most in-depth published reports contained a full version of the exchanges between the coroner and the surgeon being interrogated.
Jack the Ripper and the London Press, Perry, 2001.

There are plenty of sources for you to look up that will tell you the press used shorthand, whereas the court recorder at an inquest used longhand - so to keep up with the proceedings he had to skip entire lines of testimony.

We have this same situation with the Eddowes case - I'm sure you know this too, so why you keep repeating this obviously false line of argument must be intended as a distraction as it adds no value to the discussion.

The court record is only a brief account, not the full account.

That’s quite a little dance you’ve got Lewis, hutch, Aman and Mary doing wick.
Unfortunately it’s physically impossible.

[Sam Flynn]

I didn't single this out Gareth - you did!

You're the one who quoted the inaccurate Daily News report, not me.

[Michael W Richards]

1. The press coverage IS her official testimony, which is better detailed that the court version. Ignoring the reason why this happens, especially when it has been explained to you several times, does you no favors.

2. This couple entering the court was not important at the time her testimony was being given as no-body believed either had a role to play in this murder, not forgetting the fact Lewis had no idea the drunk & hatless woman was Mary Kelly.

Jon, why do you insist on posting nonsense and acting as if your perspective is the obvious one.

For 1, the press coverage is not the official version, the printed version of the Inquest is. The press obviously did not always print every word and every line verbatim, they were taking notes. They are not the definitive record at all. We do not have the complete Inquest documents created by the body in charge, but we do have lots of accounts that mirror each other.

2, any account of any couple entering the courtyard after midnight would be important, considering that the police wanted to interview anyone who was in that court during that night. Its like claiming Israels story was absent from the Inquest because it wasn't important to the germane question, when in fact, if it was believed, it would have been the MOST important statement.

[Wickerman]

If you read all the reports - as opposed to singling out this hopelessly garbled* account in the Daily News -...

I didn't single this out Gareth - you did!
If you recall, it was you who claimed she didn't say she saw anyone pass up the court.

The press coverage taken as a whole is quite consistent with Lewis walking down Dorset St. behind this couple, seeing them pass up the court, then when she reached the court, as she said, she saw a man standing opposite, and there was no-one in the court, which there wouldn't be had this couple gone into one of the rooms - exactly what Hutchinson claimed they did.
Of course this couple will be "further on", when Lewis is walking behind them, so that is perfectly correct too.

Do you seriously believe that, if Lewis had seen a couple actually entering Miller's Court we wouldn't have heard more about it in the other papers, and in Lewis's official witness statement?

The press coverage IS her official testimony, which is better detailed that the court version. Ignoring the reason why this happens, especially when it has been explained to you several times, does you no favors.

This couple entering the court was not important at the time her testimony was being given as no-body believed either had a role to play in this murder, not forgetting the fact Lewis had no idea the drunk & hatless woman was Mary Kelly herself.

Garbled to the point where the Daily News, in the very same report, has Lewis say that she saw Mr Widewake standing "in the doorway of the deceased's house", which is patently incorrect.

Hutchinson does admit to walking up to her room to stand and listen, but could hear nothing. So, he must have gone up the passage to stand outside her door.
Each newspaper provided different parts of her testimony, edited down, while the court recorder only concerned himself with select points of interest to the coroner.
All the versions need to be put together to obtain the complete story.

Reporters who covered the inquests had to rely on shorthand or pay scribes to transcribe the testimony, and then they faced a choice between paraphrase and direct quotation. Whichever method they selected, not even the most in-depth published reports contained a full version of the exchanges between the coroner and the surgeon being interrogated.
Jack the Ripper and the London Press, Perry, 2001.

There are plenty of sources for you to look up that will tell you the press used shorthand, whereas the court recorder at an inquest used longhand - so to keep up with the proceedings he had to skip entire lines of testimony.

We have this same situation with the Eddowes case - I'm sure you know this too, so why you keep repeating this obviously false line of argument must be intended as a distraction as it adds no value to the discussion.

The court record is only a brief account, not the full account.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Abby,

This part of Hutchinson’s statement has always concerned me. I may be alone in this?

“I stooped down and looked him in the face. He looked at me stern.”

This isn’t normal behaviour (whatever normal is of course ). It’s always seemed to me like an attempt by Hutchinson to validate himself as a witness. He doesn’t mention Kelly commenting on this behaviour but you would have thought that she’d have been non-too-pleased at H intimidating a client and potentially scaring him off. I could imagine Mary telling him to p*#* off!

Also, is it really likely that Hutchinson, who lived hand to mouth in dosshouses, could afford to give her a few shillings now a then?

For thirty years or so I’ve struggled to avoid the impression that Hutchinson was just a nobody who wanted to feel important, or like a generous benefactor and maybe earn a few pints for his story while he was at it. I could be wrong of course but it’s hard for me to think otherwise

[Abby Normal]

Hi,
I shall always believe entirely in the statement of one George Hutchinson.
I cannot see what is so suspicious.
When he made his statement to the police on the Monday evening, he explained to them , that he hesitated coming forward, and a fellow in his lodging house , said he ought to.
I cannot see what is wrong with his account.
He saw a woman he knew, spoke to her, followed her back to Dorset street, as he was curious , that she was with a well dressed man.although it did not occur to him it smelt danger.
He waited [ most likely hoping the man would leave, and he could spend some time in the room].
When this did not occur, he moved on.
As it was rumoured over the weekend, that Kelly was killed during the hours of light, he did not consider anything suspicious.
But when he began to realise the medical reports stated otherwise, he considered he may have seen her killer, and finally plucked up courage to venture into the police station.
He assisted the police, and nothing materialised.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard
Despite that I have always vigorously voiced my opinion that hutch was full of ****, I actually have no problem with this, although I think it is by far the most unlikely scenario. It’s when people start twisting facts and cherry picking obvious erroneous press accounts that pisses me off.

Now, that being said, the only point you make that I would have an issue with in your scenario is hutch not coming forward until he heard about Night time TOD.
I think anyone who had seen that late night activity with AMAN, regardless of what the consensus was favoring a morning murder, would know that it’s important enough to come forward ASAP.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi,
I shall always believe entirely in the statement of one George Hutchinson.
I cannot see what is so suspicious.

Regards Richard.

How about a 4 day delay if he indeed was a friend of Marys and the fantastic and minute detail of the appearance of someone in the middle of the night with what had to be minimum lighting Richard. To start.

[Michael W Richards]

Jon,

Lewis said she DIDN'T know Mary - so what on earth are you talking about now?

In my post it was the fact that she had no connection with Mary that was relevant, and the 4 women I mentioned did.

[B][I]No-one; not press, not the public, knew about Cox's sighting until the inquest - stop deluding yourself. It doesn't matter what WE know today - of course WE know Blotchy was with Kelly at midnight - BECAUSE WE'VE ALL READ THE BLOODY INQUEST, for goodness sake - wake up man!!![/[/I]B]

I wonder at times whether you had read it Jon. The police knew of the man Jon, and they had every reason to believe that this was the last person seen with Mary, so whether the press was told or not, Blotchy would OF COURSE be considered a suspect. That's SOP, and surely something you can grasp.

"I know you can't be bothered, or possibly you don't know how to do this - but if you think the police identified Blotchy as a suspect before the Monday inquest - go ahead and post the account - or sit back down and be quiet".

See the above.

Its abundantly clear that in the Inquest the presumption is that Mary was last seen with Blotchy Man. That's based primarily on the stories given by the women who actually knew Mary and were in closest proximity to her that night. Mary Ann Cox was the person called to give her story after the man closest to Mary, Joe, and the men who found Mary, gave theirs. Seems a logical way to set up the witness who saw Mary last. Or is that too logical and rational?

The manner in which the witnesses were introduced seems to vary in the proceedings and is not always delivered in the most logical fashion, i.e. most pertinent story immediately after the background is established....and Barnetts testimony shows us Mary was living alone,...pertinent to the question at hand, and Bowyer and McCarthy establish time and manner in which she is found, also pertinent. It was logically presented in this case.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I shall always believe entirely in the statement of one George Hutchinson.
I cannot see what is so suspicious.
When he made his statement to the police on the Monday evening, he explained to them , that he hesitated coming forward, and a fellow in his lodging house , said he ought to.
I cannot see what is wrong with his account.
He saw a woman he knew, spoke to her, followed her back to Dorset street, as he was curious , that she was with a well dressed man.although it did not occur to him it smelt danger.
He waited [ most likely hoping the man would leave, and he could spend some time in the room].
When this did not occur, he moved on.
As it was rumoured over the weekend, that Kelly was killed during the hours of light, he did not consider anything suspicious.
But when he began to realise the medical reports stated otherwise, he considered he may have seen her killer, and finally plucked up courage to venture into the police station.
He assisted the police, and nothing materialised.
Regards Richard.

[Varqm]

Exactly. Hutch says he followed Mary and arman as they lingered in front of the court and then they went into the court at which point hutch made his little vigil as waiting watching man, then Lewis comes, sees hutch and then goes into the court. Even the logistics don’t allow for Lewis to see Mary and aman go up the court.

But Aman is a figment anyway so it’s a moot point.

Hutch came to find Mary and was waiting for her, or her guest to leave, when Lewis appeared.

It ain’t rocket science, although some, or one wants to make it out to be.

Agree.This has been said numerous times.2:15 AM Kelly/Aman entered the court.They believe in Hutch but does not want to believe in the details
of his tale.Silliness.

[Sam Flynn]

????
I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.
Daily News, 13th Nov. 1888

This does not say, AS THEY passed up the court.

If you read all the reports - as opposed to singling out this hopelessly garbled* account in the Daily News - the picture emerges of Lewis seeing the couple "further on" in Dorset Street, at around the same time she clocked the man standing outside the lodging-house opposite. Do you seriously believe that, if Lewis had seen a couple actually entering Miller's Court we wouldn't have heard more about it in the other papers, and in Lewis's official witness statement?

* Garbled to the point where the Daily News, in the very same report, has Lewis say that she saw Mr Widewake standing "in the doorway of the deceased's house", which is patently incorrect.

[Wickerman]

Lewis does not say that she saw the couple enter the court, but that she saw the couple as SHE (Lewis) entered the court.

????
I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court.
Daily News, 13th Nov. 1888

This does not say, AS THEY passed up the court.

[Wickerman]

Ive tried to be patient with this absurd contention of yours that Lewis and Kennedy were 2 people, but the above suggests something that is clearly misleading. Whether they publicly said Blotchy was a suspect or not between Friday aft and Monday, he is most obviously the last mans seen with Mary by any of the credible witnesses...and Ill say this once more....THE WITNESSES THAT WE KNOW KNEW MARY ...and lived in close proximity to her room. Thats Julia, Elizabeth, Maria and Mary Ann...period. There is no evidence at all that Lewis KNEW Mary, there is no evidence that Maxwell KNEW Mary, and the accounts that have her seen outside her room after midnight are ABSENT or discounted by the coroner during Inquest questioning. What you post does nothing but mislead the posters that havent studied these crimes for eons...going on 30 years in my case.

You are proving yourself as concerned with the facts as our resident I SEE LECHMERE EVERWHERE poster.

And to complete this corrective post, the Star said Hutchinsons story was discredited on the 15th. The word speaks for it itself Jon, none of your revisionist style of reciting what you think happened vs the actual facts changes that.

Dear oh dear, maybe you should take more water with it Michael.

Lewis said she DIDN'T know Mary - so what on earth are you talking about now?

Could you do yourself a favor and actually reply to what is written, instead of going off on some wild goose chase of your own creation!

No-one; not press, not the public, knew about Cox's sighting until the inquest - stop deluding yourself. It doesn't matter what WE know today - of course WE know Blotchy was with Kelly at midnight - BECAUSE WE'VE ALL READ THE BLOODY INQUEST, for goodness sake - wake up man!!!

I know you can't be bothered, or possibly you don't know how to do this - but if you think the police identified Blotchy as a suspect before the Monday inquest - go ahead and post the account - or sit back down and be quiet.

[Abby Normal]

Lewis does not say that she saw the couple enter the court, but that she saw the couple as SHE (Lewis) entered the court.

Exactly. Hutch says he followed Mary and arman as they lingered in front of the court and then they went into the court at which point hutch made his little vigil as waiting watching man, then Lewis comes, sees hutch and then goes into the court. Even the logistics don’t allow for Lewis to see Mary and aman go up the court.

But Aman is a figment anyway so it’s a moot point.

Hutch came to find Mary and was waiting for her, or her guest to leave, when Lewis appeared.

It ain’t rocket science, although some, or one wants to make it out to be.