Hutchinsons statement....

[Michael W Richards]

According to the Star, the cry was corroborated by a whole heap of people... Maybe it was the fact that Prater and Lewis suggested roughly the same time for the cry that helped got them on the stand...?

I think it was the fact that one of them provably knew the victim and lived in the same house, and the other had close proximity. The fact that they heard the cry in differing volumes at roughly the same time helps us pinpoint the source, and perhaps the entrance of the killer. Which would make the sighting(s) earlier less valuable, but Hutchinson, if he was indeed Wideawake man, even more curious. Might be the only person seen lurking just outside the courtyard after midnight.

[Michael W Richards]

David.
Koebrodski went out twice, the first time along Fairclough st. with Diemschitz, they did not find a policeman. The second time up to Commercial Rd. thats where he found PC Lamb.

In fact if you had read Michaels post #864, you would have seen your answer.

Incidentally Michael, "at the request of Diemschitz" means Diemschitz asked Kozebrodski to accompany him.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle"

I don't see your interpretation in the words above Jon, it seems pretty clear to me that "I" went looking for a policeman at the request of"...and that is not in any of the club affiliated statements, from Louis, Eagle or anyone else. The timing within that same quote however has no less than 3 corroborating statements, from members inside the club and from someone with no affiliation at all. Odd that the accounts do not reflect that solo trip by Issac...could it be because his story also suggest that he was by a dying woman at approx. 12:45? off a few minutes ok...but a quarter of an hour when he was inside the club for 10-15 minutes before he was summoned, and likely took note of the time.

Sources aside, I tend to side with multiple corroborating accounts, someone with no known affiliation to anyone on that site, and people who don't have their ongoing livelihood connected with suspicions of innocence or guilt by the authorities.

[GUT]

Yes but the cry Lewis heard was corroborated.But what does your gut tell you,no pun intended.

About the sightings???

[Robert]

Emily Alexandra Lewis :

Born 1888 58 Appian Rd, Bow.

In 1891 she was with her grandparents at 3 Candy St, Bow.

1892 - 5 according to school records she was at 73 Lamprell St.

[Fisherman]

Yes but the cry Lewis heard was corroborated.But what does your gut tell you,no pun intended.

According to the Star, the cry was corroborated by a whole heap of people... Maybe it was the fact that Prater and Lewis suggested roughly the same time for the cry that helped got them on the stand...?

[Fisherman]

You don't have to but I believe in Sarah Lewis,she was a straightforward witness,whose story she visted Keylers could have been checked since she was sequestered in Miller's court.If she said it was her that got accosted in Bethnal Green,went to the room across Kelly's room,heard Oh murder,then it was her.
It could not have happened to 2 people.Those versions then would be wrong,either the reporter misidentified her,Sarah gave the name Mrs. Kennedy,or somebody pretended to be Lewis.

You make a lot of sense, and may well be spot on. But the thing I am arguing about is how you say that things are "clear". They are not. They are muddled.

[Fisherman]

Varqm: (I know Iīm not supposed to butt in here, but I really donīt think they spoke of the same man at all)

It had to be Hutch,he waited for 45 min.

And did Lewis establish that the loiterer waited for 45 minutes too? No, she did not. Did the loiterer stand where Hutchinson said he stood? Ne, he did not. So does it have to be the same man? No,it does not - unless we can prove that Hutchinson was there at the time Lewis was there. Can we do that? No, we can not - Hutchinson never mentioned Lewis at all, and so the likelier thing is that he was not there at the time.

We have zero evidence of Hutchinson placing himself in any other spot than "at the corner of the court". Ergo, as far as I am concerened, when he said he went to the court, I think he was telling us that he walked into the court itself.

I believed it more to be 2 incidents rather than Badham wrote wrong.I believe in Sarah Lewis,Lewis only saw one man across or near Miller's court.So Hutch's initial report was missing Sarah Lewis coming down to Miller's court and "man was looking up the court" (from near Crossinghams).

Like you said before: we need to agree to disagree. Have a look at Lewisī collected evidence, and you may be less enthusiastic about her value as a witness - especially if she was also Mrs Kennedy.

Astrakhan man would be the prime suspect, and Hutchinsons story would not be graded down in importance.

From Thrawl Street to what the couple did,to standing near the court for several minutes,couple's conversations and "I went to the court to see" maybe took 10-15-20 minutes,and 45 minutes waiting so 2:55 AM to 3:05 AM that Astrakhan man could have left.
Still yes a prime suspect and probably the police would have searched for for years.And retained contact with so that if they found a suspect they would need him and have him as one of the witnesses to identify the suspect.

But that never happened; he was graded down alongside Hutchinsons story. And I have stated why In think that was so.

[Varqm]

But Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell were pretty straightforward witness too, but are pretty much ignored by most.

Yes but the cry Lewis heard was corroborated.But what does your gut tell you,no pun intended.

[Wickerman]

But there's no mention of Fairclough Street in Michael's post #864.

So that can't be the answer to my question.

You must really avail yourself of a map.

The quote offered by Michael, in part reads:

"......but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

From the murder site in Dutfields Yard there are two direct ways to get to Grove Street. The nearest via Fairclough st., and the longer via Commercial rd.
He says his second venture was along Commercial Rd., so his first search was via ?.....(answers on a post card please.....)

Sometimes we have to figure things out ourselves.

[GUT]

You don't have to but I believe in Sarah Lewis,she was a straightforward witness,whose story she visted Keylers could have been checked since she was sequestered in Miller's court.If she said it was her that got accosted in Bethnal Green,went to the room across Kelly's room,heard Oh murder,then it was her.
It could not have happened to 2 people.Those versions then would be wrong,either the reporter misidentified her,Sarah gave the name Mrs. Kennedy,or somebody pretended to be Lewis.

But Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell were pretty straightforward witness too, but are pretty much ignored by most.

[Varqm]

How long did police search for the "red-neck" suspect from Eddowes murder, years, months, weeks, days?
The police had three witnesses in that case yet what happened to that investigation?

First would he have been a prime suspect?
A notorious case involving a series of murders ,common sense says years.
Officially closed in 1892.

[Wickerman]

Still yes a prime suspect and probably the police would have searched for for years.And retained contact with so that if they found a suspect they would need him and have him as one of the witnesses to identify the suspect.

How long did police search for the "red-neck" suspect from Eddowes murder, years, months, weeks, days?
The police had three witnesses in that case yet what happened to that investigation?

[Varqm]

Nope. It is NOT "clear" at all. It is unclear.

I am not saying that they were not one and the same - they may well have been. In any case, though, it is not "clear" at all.

If it was, we would not have this discussion.

You don't have to but I believe in Sarah Lewis,she was a straightforward witness,whose story she visted Keylers could have been checked since she was sequestered in Miller's court.If she said it was her that got accosted in Bethnal Green,went to the room across Kelly's room,heard Oh murder,then it was her.
It could not have happened to 2 people.Those versions then would be wrong,either the reporter misidentified her,Sarah gave the name Mrs. Kennedy,or somebody pretended to be Lewis.

[Varqm]

Varqm: Yes Astrakhan man could have been a good suspect,last man seen with Kelly before estimated time of death 3-4 AM, since he could have left the court at around, more or less, 3:05-3:15 A.M. or 3:10-3:20 A.M..Although if death was at 4 AM, another man could have come in after,around 30 minutes was enough time.

I think Astrakhan man was regarded as THE suspect - up until it was revealed that Hutchinson had mixed up the days. After that, Astrakhan was still of some interest, but nowhere near the interest he originally aroused.
That, by the way, fits the evidence perfectly.

3:15: if Hutch's "I went to the court to see if I could see them, but I could not " and Sarah's "was looking up the court as if waiting for someone" from across the street were the same.

(I know Iīm not supposed to butt in here, but I really donīt think they spoke of the same man at all)

i3:05: if Hutchinson went to court and looked again as seen by Sarah (while waiting for 45 minutes) if separate incidents."Went to the court" could mean in front of the court or inside but also walking to the court but not necessarily reaching the court (same as 3:15 ).Which could mean the initial report was incomplete.

We have zero evidence of Hutchinson placing himself in any other spot than "at the corner of the court". Ergo, as far as I am concerened, when he said he went to the court, I think he was telling us that he walked into the court itself.

IF Hutchinson was an upstanding citizen and his story checked out,it's clear he knew Kelly,he went to Romford,what would happen to Astrakhan man's importance as a suspect and Hutchinson as a witness?

Astrakhan man would be the prime suspect, and Hutchinsons story would not be graded down in importance.
But what happened...?

(I know Iīm not supposed to butt in here, but I really donīt think they spoke of the same man at all)

It had to be Hutch,he waited for 45 min.

We have zero evidence of Hutchinson placing himself in any other spot than "at the corner of the court". Ergo, as far as I am concerened, when he said he went to the court, I think he was telling us that he walked into the court itself.


I believed it more to be 2 incidents rather than Badham wrote wrong.I believe in Sarah Lewis,Lewis only saw one man across or near Miller's court.So Hutch's initial report was missing Sarah Lewis coming down to Miller's court and "man was looking up the court" (from near Crossinghams).

Astrakhan man would be the prime suspect, and Hutchinsons story would not be graded down in importance.

From Thrawl Street to what the couple did,to standing near the court for several minutes,couple's conversations and "I went to the court to see" maybe took 10-15-20 minutes,and 45 minutes waiting so 2:55 AM to 3:05 AM that Astrakhan man could have left.
Still yes a prime suspect and probably the police would have searched for for years.And retained contact with so that if they found a suspect they would need him and have him as one of the witnesses to identify the suspect.

[Robert]

Hi Observer

We all know what a great researcher Chris was. He spoke to the Church family (Church, not Castle) and he was satisfied that they were on the level, so that's good enough for me.

However, the question remains whether Sarah Lewis herself was romancing/attention-seeking/misremembering, or even whether the family somehow garbled the reminiscences passed down to them. Chris was happy that this was not the case, but here the element of caution must be greater.

I've compiled a list of the addresses of the four children of Joseph and Sarah that I know most about. First, the births :

1886 3 Candy St
1888 39 Nottingham Place
1891 14 Weaver St
1893 13 Dunk St

Now the school records. Thanks to the birth dates and father's name in these records, we can pinpoint the relevant ones. I'm assuming here that father's address is at date of child's admission.

1889 53 New St
1893 13 Dunk St
1894 7 Betts St
1895 15 Nottingham (illegible)
1897 Hayfield Passage
1898 Paragon Mansions which were, I believe, in Hayfield Passage

I'll do Thomas and Caroline's daughter Emily Alexandra later.