A present for Scotland Yard

[Pierre]

Hi,

The hypothesis that Jack the Ripper was a policeman could be corroborated by different findings on the crime scenes.

I have postulated that this is the case with the cuts on Eddowes cheeks and, before that, Lechmereīs seeing of a policeman and lying about this in the Nichols case.

As I have stated before, I think that Jack the Ripper also committed at least two of the dismemberment murders.

In 1888, parts of a female victim was placed at the construction site for the new Scotland Yard building.

My hypothesis is that Jack the Ripper wanted to taunt the police by giving them a present, placing it in their new police building.

Naturally this was a high risk site for the killer, and high risk sites is something we find in his MO all the time.

This is what should have happened:

"The second victim of the Thames series was discovered in September of 1888, in the middle of the hunt for the Whitechapel Murder. On September 11, an arm belonging to a female was discovered in the Thames off Pimlico. On September 28, another arm was found along the Lambeth-road and on October 2, the torso of a female, minus the head, was discovered. The torso was discovered on the grounds of the construction site for the New Scotland Yard building and was dubbed by the press the "Whitehall Mystery." Scotland Yard had a murder mystery to solve even before their new building was complete.

The medical men involved, along with Dr. Bond, agreed that a degree of medical knowledge had been used, but they could give no evidence pointing to the method of death. Dr. Charles Hibbert, who examined one of the arms, stated that, "I thought the arm was cut off by a person who, while he was not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing-who knew where the joints were and cut them pretty regularly." At the inquest, the jury, despite the fact that an obvious murder had taken place, returned a verdict of "Found Dead.""

http://www.casebook.org/dissertation...o-murders.html

Now, the person responsible for the dismemberment murders could be said to have another MO than the Whitechapel killer. But serial killers using different methods or changing their MO:s is nothing unusual. The Zodiac Killer did that for instance.

So one has to think about what could connect the dismemberment murders to the Whitechapel murders.

My hypothesis is that the taunting of the police and the mutilations connects them.

An interesting aspect of the theory about the Whitechapel killer being the Dismemberment killer is that he then should have worked both in the East End and in the West End. This shows the killer to have a bigger geographical working area but it also means that he were crossing boundaries, something he also did in the case of the double event.

But the perhaps most interesting aspect is that with the dismemberment murders he could taunt the police by distributing pieces of the victims over a bigger are and at the same time he could murder women and mutilate the bodies in a more extensive way.

I know that many of you are very interested in the Whitechapel killer and have built your knowledge of Jack the Ripper with focus on his murders in Whitechapel (and Mitre Square). So perhaps the dismemberment murders are as new to you as they are to me and we could discuss them, starting from an hypothesis that Jack the Ripper did those too. Or maybe you have lots of knowledge about the dismemberment murders and would like to comment on this.

Kind Regards, Pierre

I do not agree with all this.

Pierre

[Phil Carter]

Lol if you hypothesise that a policeman was the murderer, they are not going to obey the law let alone adhere to a beat.

Aah. . But I didn't!


Phil

[Elamarna]

Steve,

As Monty knows, the timing of WHEN the killer(s) left the scene is so debatable given the possibilities. The method of exiting the scene slightly less so I would agree. I cannot say with certainty that Mitre St was more or less likely to be honest. There are other possibilities depending on exactly WHEN the killer(s) left the scene. It really is very hard to be exact with this one, IMHO.

Happy New Year to all. ☺


Phil

sorry phil

i don’t follow you with: "I cannot say with certainty that Mitre St was more or less likely to be honest."

you lost me.

my view is that the killer was gone before 1.45.

what time is open for debate, indeed the time of arrival too.

my choice would be leave by Church passage, with Mitre street as 2nd choice.
the 3rd option takes you to close to Morris, and the "fire Station"

Steve



sorry again Phil i misread first time, must be that time of night. i follow now

[Whitechapel]

Lol if you hypothesise that a policeman was the murderer, they are not going to obey the law let alone adhere to a beat.

[Phil Carter]

Steve,

As Monty knows, the timing of WHEN the killer(s) left the scene is so debatable given the possibilities. The method of exiting the scene slightly less so I would agree. I cannot say with certainty that Mitre St was more or less likely to be honest. There are other possibilities depending on exactly WHEN the killer(s) left the scene. It really is very hard to be exact with this one, IMHO.

Happy New Year to all. ☺


Phil

[Monty]

Monty

Yes, I am assuming the killer was gone by then.

Probably back down Church passage, but possibly out via mitre street which was closer. I found Gavin's work very persuasive, I am not aware of anything new to change my view.

steve

As someone who aided Gavin with his research into that piece, I would have to agree with your findings.

Monty

[Elamarna]

Monty

Yes, I am assuming the killer was gone by then.

Probably back down Church passage, but possibly out via mitre street which was closer. I found Gavin's work very persuasive, I am not aware of anything new to change my view.

steve

[Monty]

I agree with all you state Steve,

However Morris does state his door was ajar at 1.45 am

Monty

[Elamarna]

don t cut quotes to give a false impression.

"yes it would have been, however there is much to suggest that Stride was killed by a different hand, not my view, but there are strong arguments in that viewpoint.

There is no evidence that the double event was planned as such in advance.

You claim you have such evidence, however until such evidence is available for inspection by others, it is with all due respect heresay."

IF IT WERE PLANNED FROM START TO FINISH, WITH A TIMETABLE, KNOWING BEATS WOULD HELP. BUT SUCH A SUGGESTION AS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.

as you so often say, this is NOT A GAME, I am not play yours

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Elamarna;365993]

"But knowledge of how the police worked would have been a good help if you wanted to commit several serial murders in Spitalfields in a short time."

yes it would have been,...QUOTE]

OK, Steve. You are smart and you know a lot of details. If you would point out the most important things, in what ways would it have been a good help for Jack the Ripper to have knowledge of how the police worked?

[Elamarna]

Actually there was, George Morris. The night watchman.

Michael,,

see my follow up post, morris said his door was closed, therefore the killer would not need to be more silent than I suggest, if the door opened he would I am sure have heard such, and then he would have gone into "silent running mode" so to speak, indeed he would probably have stopped and attempted to leave into Mitre Street, closest exit and away from Morris.
indeed given the Injuries, once the throat was cut, would there be any need for any sound other than the cutting of clothing and skin.

steve

[Elamarna]

What has your view on this site got to do with the comment I made Pierre?

it was a misleading quote: it gave the impression that Harvey was so in contact with the murder site he would have heard something, unless there was an attempt to suppress the sound , which is what the bulk of your post was about.


It does not matter who Gavin is, stop judging research on who writes it, read the research and if you can find fault with it do so.

Post modern views as you call them are not automatically wrong; anyway this view is very old indeed, it is not post modern, Pierre if you had, with all due respect, more knowledge of the murders you would know that!

However I do not agree with it, gave it as an example of why special degree of silence above normal was not needed.

Simply as there was no one in the square for more than a few seconds, and Morris had his door closed, had it been open the killer would have seen it on his way to the corner, indeed Morris said he was often at the door at that time of night but not that night, there was no need to be any more silent in his work, than while I eat a meal or type as I write this.

No calculations, I believe , in the lack of any evidence to the contrary, that the killer was just lucky.

"But knowledge of how the police worked would have been a good help if you wanted to commit several serial murders in Spitalfields in a short time."

yes it would have been, however there is much to suggest that Stride was killed by a different hand, not my view, but there are strong arguments in that viewpoint.

There is no evidence that the double event was planned as such in advance.

You claim you have such evidence, however until such evidence is available for inspection by others, it is with all due respect heresay.

[Michael W Richards]

There was no need for the Killer to be super silent, and thus the post on what silence could mean is redundant

Elamarna

Actually there was, George Morris. The night watchman.

[Pierre]

Sorry, thats give a misleading impression, given it appears to be a quote it is not you fault. has you have told us many times that you only read reports from the time and nothing else so how, could you know!

I donīt regards this website as "secondary literature". With literature I mean books containing ripperology.

Ripperologist Magazine #74 and 75 has a very in depth paper by Gavin Bromley discussing the beats and timings of both Harvey and Watkins.
given that you believe the killer knew the police beats,you really should read it.

Iīd love to if I would first get to know who this Bromley is.

Harvey, as I am sure most know never actually entered Mitre Square, his beat included the length of Church Passage, on reaching the junction with Mitre Square he would look into the square then go back the way he came.
He would have been in that position for only a few seconds.

I admire your knowledge of details.

The killer, could have heard Harvey approaching down church passage and stopped working for the few seconds required.
Bromley argues that he had already left the scene when Harvey arrived.

There is also the view held by some that Harvey never checked Church passage that night.

I dontīt like radical postmodernistic ideas about "views".

There was no need for the Killer to be super silent, and thus the post on what silence could mean is redundant

Naturally there was a need to be silent, but I donīt know what you mean when you say "super silent".

Are you making an ordinal scale (a little silent, silent, super silent) and trying to correlate it with the distance of the nearest police beat or what?

And are you suggesting that the killer would then have made rational calculations as "Letīs see...there is x meters to the PC:s beat, how silent must I be here?"

As for my post being redundant, OK.

But knowledge of how the police worked would have been a good help if you wanted to commit several serial murders in Spitalfields in a short time.

Regards Pierre

[Elamarna]

[B]


"HARVEY, P.C. James...

Testified to having heard nothing on the night of Catherine Eddowes' murder, although his beat took him throughout the area of Mitre Square that morning."

He could tell us that the murderer was very silent.

Sorry, thats give a misleading impression, given it appears to be a quote it is not you fault. has you have told us many times that you only read reports from the time and nothing else so how, could you know!


Ripperologist Magazine #74 and 75 has a very in depth paper by Gavin Bromley discussing the beats and timings of both Harvey and Watkins.
given that you believe the killer knew the police beats,you really should read it.

Harvey, as I am sure most know never actually entered Mitre Square, his beat included the length of Church Passage, on reaching the junction with Mitre Square he would look into the square then go back the way he came.
He would have been in that position for only a few seconds.

The killer, could have heard Harvey approaching down church passage and stopped working for the few seconds required.
Bromley argues that he had already left the scene when Harvey arrived.

There is also the view held by some that Harvey never checked Church passage that night.

There was no need for the Killer to be super silent, and thus the post on what silence could mean is redundant

Elamarna