Social class of Jack the Ripper

[Mayerling]

No, that's true, and the same for the squabble Schwartz witnessed in Berner St, IMHO. If this couple weren't Jack and Kate then thank heavens they didn't wander off into the Square, where they might have received a rather nasty surprise!

As for poor Kate, however she got there she ended up dead in Mitre Square, which shows she must have been alone with a man in that locality, whether she had a chat with him beforehand or not.

Mayerling, I was just giving a bit of a sly reference in my previous post to Kate having a poster from a chandler/cheesemonger in her possession when she died.
It's true that the People's William had an enthusiasm for reform, including saving 'fallen women'. However, he seems to have restricted his missionary efforts to women in the West End of London, doesn't he?

To be honest I thought it was the fallen of the East End. Anyway it was well intentioned, but somewhat eccentric. Thanks for explaining the cheese reference.

Jeff

[Wickerman]

In the words of John Kelly and their frequent landlord, they slept together every night. That certainly puts some restrictions on when she might have been soliciting,...since almost all the unfortunates prostituted during the evening hours and for booze and shelter. John had shelter secured that night, but Kate didn't seek him out, even though they supposedly slept together each night. Odd that it would seem they didn't sleep together the Friday night they had pawned the boots, and had money.

Hi Michael.
Do you think John was being protective of Kate?
If a man admits his woman was 'loose' it invites all kinds of thoughts and questions, none the least is him living off immoral gains if she ever paid for a drink, bed or meal.
How many men would you expect to admit their woman was on the streets sometimes?

[Michael W Richards]

I know this doesn't constitute as 'evidence' per-se, but the City Commissioner Sir Henry Smith wrote in his memoirs:

"The "beat" of Catharine Eddowes was a small one. She was known to a good many of the constables..."

I'm not sure what evidence we would expect to find to prove she was, especially when it appears she didn't want John Kelly knowing what she was doing.

In the words of John Kelly and their frequent landlord, they slept together every night. That certainly puts some restrictions on when she might have been soliciting,...since almost all the unfortunates prostituted during the evening hours and for booze and shelter. John had shelter secured that night, but Kate didn't seek him out, even though they supposedly slept together each night. Odd that it would seem they didn't sleep together the Friday night they had pawned the boots, and had money.

[Rosella]

No, that's true, and the same for the squabble Schwartz witnessed in Berner St, IMHO. If this couple weren't Jack and Kate then thank heavens they didn't wander off into the Square, where they might have received a rather nasty surprise!

As for poor Kate, however she got there she ended up dead in Mitre Square, which shows she must have been alone with a man in that locality, whether she had a chat with him beforehand or not.

Mayerling, I was just giving a bit of a sly reference in my previous post to Kate having a poster from a chandler/cheesemonger in her possession when she died.
It's true that the People's William had an enthusiasm for reform, including saving 'fallen women'. However, he seems to have restricted his missionary efforts to women in the West End of London, doesn't he?

[Michael W Richards]

It seems to be the accepted convention to believe this couple seen by Lawende was Kate and her killer, even though Lawende was not so sure, neither was McWilliams nor Swanson utterly convinced that he had seen Kate with the killer.
The time constraints for the murder and mutilation are quite controversial, and the principal reason for this is the blind acceptance of Lawende seeing the killer in Duke St.

I'm not at all convinced this is the case.

Well done Jon, .... not only are we unsure he saw our Kate but he proclaimed within 2weeks that he would not be able to recognize her again if he saw her. He said himself that he did not get good look.

As you point out, the veracity of the sighting at around 1:35 outside the square is hard to reconcile with a discovery of her dead and severely mutilated remains around 1:44am, inside the dark square. Even with leeway given at both ends of that equation, its likely less than 10 minutes to get her into the square, kill her and for everything that happened to take place after that...hard to fathom.

[Wickerman]

... why do you think a woman would be standing at a dark entry to an extremely dark and desolate square, with her hands on a man's chest, in the early hours of the morning?

It seems to be the accepted convention to believe this couple seen by Lawende was Kate and her killer, even though Lawende was not so sure, neither was McWilliams nor Swanson utterly convinced that he had seen Kate with the killer.
The time constraints for the murder and mutilation are quite controversial, and the principal reason for this is the blind acceptance of Lawende seeing the killer in Duke St.

I'm not at all convinced this is the case.

[Wickerman]

No evidence at all that Kate was a prostitute, rather the opposite.

I know this doesn't constitute as 'evidence' per-se, but the City Commissioner Sir Henry Smith wrote in his memoirs:

"The "beat" of Catharine Eddowes was a small one. She was known to a good many of the constables..."

I'm not sure what evidence we would expect to find to prove she was, especially when it appears she didn't want John Kelly knowing what she was doing.

[Michael W Richards]

I think she could manage that on her own, Mike - after all, her daughter fell out with Kate on account of the her mother's drunkenness. All she'd need to do was to raise enough money to buy a few glasses of gin, whether by prostitution, begging, scrounging or some other means - she was apparently not above petty theft.

Judging by her pocket contents Sam, I can see that she might be a bit of a pincher ...but.....since we do not know where that drinking money came from, and since we do not know when she started drinking, (since street women generally prostituted at night and she was staggering drunk at 8pm), and since we know that the pawn ticket was dated for Friday, not Saturday morning, suggesting that she didn't have any money from those pawn boots Saturday afternoon...there is no knowledge of where her drinking money came from. Im merely suggesting that the solution might be found in the statement she allegedly made about collecting the reward money for information she had. Information is worth money very often, and information can also be very dangerous at times.

Without knowing specifically where it came from its not easy to dismiss any sound idea Sam.

[Mayerling]

^ Setting aside that this was a meeting by appointment (humour me just for a moment) and that Kate had been walking about or sitting for a moment on a public bench after leaving the police station and Jack approached her, walking off with her, why do you think a woman would be standing at a dark entry to an extremely dark and desolate square, with her hands on a man's chest, in the early hours of the morning?

Do you think she was discussing Gladstone's chances at the next general election, the exorbitant price of cheese, a popular music hall act, or...?

I'm not so sure about the cheese (she might have been lactointolerant). If she was discussing Dan Leno that would be interesting. As for Gladstone, I'm sure the Grand Old Man would have been an interesting subject for both Kate and "Jack". After all, the people's William frequently went out to the East End and brought home prostitutes to try to reform them. Maybe he even knew Kate....

[Michael W Richards]

Her liver was healthy. Her kidney showed signs of damage consistent with repeated UTIs. The kidneys are not damaged by alchohol (or so I have read). Kate did get drunk occasionally, but was not an alchoholic.

C4

Kate remaining kidney was diagnosed with Nephritis, which includes in its family, Brights Disease. This can be caused by excessive alcohol over prolonged periods. So yes, livers and kidneys can be injured by booze.

To be frank, almost everything we supposedly know about Kate comes from her "partner", her friends and her acquaintances. How much she actually drank, why she came early from hopping, and where she slept that last Friday night are a few examples. We do not know enough facts to conclude anything for certain.

[Rosella]

Maybe he hummed a little tune to himself as he worked....?

[curious4]

Proof, if any were needed, that he worked unaccompanied!

Very good! :-D

C4

[Sam Flynn]

Well we can be sure that Jack didn't have his ukelele in his hand.

Proof, if any were needed, that he worked unaccompanied!

[Sam Flynn]

Someone got Kate staggering drunk by 8pm

I think she could manage that on her own, Mike - after all, her daughter fell out with Kate on account of the her mother's drunkenness. All she'd need to do was to raise enough money to buy a few glasses of gin, whether by prostitution, begging, scrounging or some other means - she was apparently not above petty theft.

[curious4]

Turned out nice again, 'aven't it?

Well we can be sure that Jack didn't have his ukelele in his hand.

C4