Social class of Jack the Ripper

[Mayerling]

No, that's true, and the same for the squabble Schwartz witnessed in Berner St, IMHO. If this couple weren't Jack and Kate then thank heavens they didn't wander off into the Square, where they might have received a rather nasty surprise!

As for poor Kate, however she got there she ended up dead in Mitre Square, which shows she must have been alone with a man in that locality, whether she had a chat with him beforehand or not.

Mayerling, I was just giving a bit of a sly reference in my previous post to Kate having a poster from a chandler/cheesemonger in her possession when she died.
It's true that the People's William had an enthusiasm for reform, including saving 'fallen women'. However, he seems to have restricted his missionary efforts to women in the West End of London, doesn't he?

To be honest I thought it was the fallen of the East End. Anyway it was well intentioned, but somewhat eccentric. Thanks for explaining the cheese reference.

Jeff

[curious4]

They bought food for the money and had none left.

The deputy lodging house keeper stated "to (his) knowledge the deceased had not been in the habit of walking the streets". He also said that they usually came in between 9 and 10.

Best wishes
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Michael.
Do you think John was being protective of Kate?
If a man admits his woman was 'loose' it invites all kinds of thoughts and questions, none the least is him living off immoral gains if she ever paid for a drink, bed or meal.
How many men would you expect to admit their woman was on the streets sometimes?

I think in Kellys own words Jon their relationship was something of a protector-charge kind of thing...there is little talk of any emotion in their relationship. Maybe they were just partners sharing income to survive, maybe John was her security, maybe John was her pal...Im not sure. But I don't believe that theirs was a deep emotional bond. I think that Mary Kellys relationship with Joe is similar in that respect.

But the landlord spoke about their habit of being in together most every night, so that seems to indicate that Kate didn't solicit much if at all.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=curious4;362097]They bought food for the money and had none left.

The deputy lodging house keeper stated "to (his) knowledge the deceased had not been in the habit of walking the streets". He also said that they usually came in between 9 and 10.

Best wishes
C4[/QUOTE

Problem with the first sentence is that the boots were pawned on Friday according to the pawn ticket, so why did they then choose to eat and sleep apart Friday night? John had a fuzzy memory of Saturday morning,... hungover?

[DJA]

I think in Kellys own words Jon their relationship was something of a protector-charge kind of thing...there is little talk of any emotion in their relationship. Maybe they were just partners sharing income to survive, maybe John was her security, maybe John was her pal...Im not sure. But I don't believe that theirs was a deep emotional bond. I think that Mary Kellys relationship with Joe is similar in that respect.

But the landlord spoke about their habit of being in together most every night, so that seems to indicate that Kate didn't solicit much if at all.

Complete agreement.

Struggle Town.

[Ben]

One the other hand, maybe Abberline did ask Bowyer where he had been every single day, who he saw, what he heard, what he did, but Abberline just couldn't be bothered to write it all down?

Maybe Jon, yes; maybe Abberline was that bumbling and incompetent? I'm disinclined to think so, however. The safer assumption by far is that Abberline would have extracted the information regarding Bowyer's alleged sighting of a man, had that sighting been genuine and not a press invention. Such a sighting would have been crucial to the investigation, irrespective of the time it occurred.

And your version of realism is to dismiss what the witnesses saw, and replace it with your own concoction of what you "think" they should have seen

You deliberately and annoyingly misrepresent my position. I made it quite clear that I don't regard Bowyer to have been the true source of that silly bogeyman description from the Western Mail. It appeared it none of the mainstream newspapers, it didn't quote Bowyer directly, it contradicted his inquest evidence, and it amounted to second-hand hearsay. It's entriely your call if you seek to revive these sorts of absurdities as genuine ripper sightings, while pooh-poohing much more reliable police-endorsed evidence such as Lawende's, but I wouldn't expect too many adherents.

Especially modern opinion which relies on interpretation by people who are a hundred plus years distant from the events.

I'm unclear as to why the "hundred years plus" is stressed, as though it made the slightest scrap of different to the psychology responsible for prompting the vast majority of serial killers to be "marauders" rather than "commuters".

[curious4]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;362134]

They bought food for the money and had none left.

The deputy lodging house keeper stated "to (his) knowledge the deceased had not been in the habit of walking the streets". He also said that they usually came in between 9 and 10.

Best wishes
C4[/QUOTE

Problem with the first sentence is that the boots were pawned on Friday according to the pawn ticket, so why did they then choose to eat and sleep apart Friday night? John had a fuzzy memory of Saturday morning,... hungover?

They pawned the boots for 2/6 on the friday and bought food and drink. After this the money was all spent. Kelly had earned 6d and offered Kate 4d to pay for a bed, but she told him to take the money and she would go to the casual ward. I believe Kelly had some kind of chest ailment, so perhaps that is why she wanted him to be comfortable. They met early on saturday and ate the food they had bought for breakfast. Out of money, Kate told Kelly she would go to her daughter to cadge money. She lied or perhaps tried to find her daughter, but equally well could have met the man she hoped would help her claim the reward and arranged to meet him later.

Best wishes
C4

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=curious4;362144]

They pawned the boots for 2/6 on the friday and bought food and drink. After this the money was all spent. Kelly had earned 6d and offered Kate 4d to pay for a bed, but she told him to take the money and she would go to the casual ward. I believe Kelly had some kind of chest ailment, so perhaps that is why she wanted him to be comfortable. They met early on saturday and ate the food they had bought for breakfast. Out of money, Kate told Kelly she would go to her daughter to cadge money. She lied or perhaps tried to find her daughter, but equally well could have met the man she hoped would help her claim the reward and arranged to meet him later.

Best wishes
C4

What youre describing is what John Kelly says happened Saturday morning. Kelly said he pawned the boots Saturday morning...which he didn't...then they bought some food and tea...the balance he said he gave to Kate. Then they parted...supposedly with a barefoot John watching her go.

[Rosella]

^ Kelly told the Coroner that all of the 2:6d given for the boots was spent on food and drink. Kelly didn't mention he'd given any money left to Kate when he gave his testimony at the Inquest.

He also said that he'd been drinking at the time the boots were pawned (on the Friday night) so he must have earned more than the sixpence he said he had earned on 'a job' that day, Friday, as tuppence worth of drink would hardly make a person so muddled they wouldn't remember pawning boots. And what about Kate? Did she go thirsty?

I think Kelly or Kate earned enough for a double bed at Cooney's (8d) but had drunk it away and he was too ashamed to say why his 'missus' had to spend the night in a charity ward while he slept at a lodging house. There's a lot of muddle and prevaricating in the testimony Kelly gives at Kate's inquest.

[curious4]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;362170]

What youre describing is what John Kelly says happened Saturday morning. Kelly said he pawned the boots Saturday morning...which he didn't...then they bought some food and tea...the balance he said he gave to Kate. Then they parted...supposedly with a barefoot John watching her go.

He was unsure at the inquest, but the pawn tickets were produced and it was shown to be the friday. He was muddled but could well have been in shock and blaming himself for what happened to Kate.

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

And he was a sick man. Kidney problem and persistant cough.

C4

[Rosella]

Yes, John Kelly seems to have been a sick man. Like so many others he disappeared from the records in later life, didn't he? No death noted etc.

[Sam Flynn]

I know this doesn't constitute as 'evidence' per-se, but the City Commissioner Sir Henry Smith wrote in his memoirs:

"The "beat" of Catharine Eddowes was a small one. She was known to a good many of the constables..."

If it comes from Henry Smith, Jon, it should perhaps count as evidence to the contrary !! His memoirs, at least in respect of his involvement in the Ripper case, should be treated with a great deal of caution.

[Wickerman]

If it comes from Henry Smith, Jon, it should perhaps count as evidence to the contrary !! His memoirs, at least in respect of his involvement in the Ripper case, should be treated with a great deal of caution.

I'm not a fan of memoirs from anybody in this case Gareth, but because the statement exists I thought it relevant to mention it.

Errors in memoirs and later writings must be judged on their own merit, like Anderson, Macnaghten, Swanson, Dew, some details are correct, and other clearly wrong, and some questionable.
We can't throw out everything they write, but neither take their word as gospel.

[Michael W Richards]

[QUOTE=curious4;362259]

He was unsure at the inquest, but the pawn tickets were produced and it was shown to be the friday. He was muddled but could well have been in shock and blaming himself for what happened to Kate.

Best wishes
C4

He also didn't "remember" that he was made aware of where Kate was sent Saturday night at 8pm, though he denied knowing that later. Again...He knew she was placed in the cell in Bishopsgate, but denied that fact and did not check for her Saturday or Sunday. Due to sniffles?