The local guy hypothesis without evidence

[John Wheat]

Hello John,

It has been argued, by Trevor Marriott, for example, that some of the torso victims may have been subject to botched abortions. However, it isn't a theory I subscribe to; it doesn't explain the risks taken in disposing of the bodies, some of the victims had never been pregnant, and the medical professionals detected no signs of botched abortions.

Hi John

Yes I'm well aware of Trevor Marriot's ahem theory on the Torso victims. It is also a theory I don't subscribe to as it has a number of flaws as you've outlined.

Cheers John

[John G]

Hi,
As this thread has raised serious points.
i would say that the killer of these women , resided in the Dorset street area, and worked in the area, most likely at a local market, he was middle aged, short , and stout, and at least one of the victims was premeditated,that being MJK.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,

What do you think of Francis Thompson as a suspect? Richard seems to have established a probable connection with Dorset Street, he'd been living rough in the local area for some time, had a reputation for starting fires, like many serial killers and, of course, he trained as a surgeon!

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hi,

No, he didnīt flee into Whitechapel. He walked from Mitre Square 10 minutes to a hiding place outside of Whitechapel, left what he took from Eddowes there, washed up, took the piece of apron and a chalk with him, went back and left the two pieces of evidence, then went back to the hiding place.

This night was extremely well planned. As was Millerīs Court.

Occamīs razor sometimes cuts away important things.

Regards Pierre

Aah!

It was caught on CCTV.

It's all clear now.

[Pierre]

He didnīt flee into Whitechapel

Eddowes's killer fled into Whitechapel. This is the biggest piece of evidence in favor of a local killer.

That, and Occam's razor.

Hi,

No, he didnīt flee into Whitechapel. He walked from Mitre Square 10 minutes to a hiding place outside of Whitechapel, left what he took from Eddowes there, washed up, took the piece of apron and a chalk with him, went back and left the two pieces of evidence, then went back to the hiding place.

This night was extremely well planned. As was Millerīs Court.

Occamīs razor sometimes cuts away important things.

Regards Pierre

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Joe Barnett..once upon a time,he was ''Number one suspect''.I started that thread some 14 years ago.
But if I had to hazard a guess, into the killer of Kelly, it would be Joe, but not likely the ones we know about?
Regards Richard.

[John G]

Hi John

If most of the Torso victims were not murdered how did they die? And how were there Torso's then dismembered?

Cheers John

Hello John,

It has been argued, by Trevor Marriott, for example, that some of the torso victims may have been subject to botched abortions. However, it isn't a theory I subscribe to; it doesn't explain the risks taken in disposing of the bodies, some of the victims had never been pregnant, and the medical professionals detected no signs of botched abortions.

[packers stem]

Hi,
As this thread has raised serious points.
i would say that the killer of these women , resided in the Dorset street area, and worked in the area, most likely at a local market, he was middle aged, short , and stout, and at least one of the victims was premeditated,that being MJK.
Regards Richard.

Joe Barnett then Richard?

[John Wheat]

Hello Pierre,

I think he must have had local knowledge, considering Whitechapel was a complete labyrinth. Moreover, the fact that the murders occurred within a remarkably small area is also strongly indicative of a marauder, therefore local.

JtR wasn't the Torso killer, as the MO/signatures are drastically different. Moreover, there's no proof that most of the Torso victims were even murdered.

Hi John

If most of the Torso victims were not murdered how did they die? And how were there Torso's then dismembered?

Cheers John

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
As this thread has raised serious points.
i would say that the killer of these women , resided in the Dorset street area, and worked in the area, most likely at a local market, he was middle aged, short , and stout, and at least one of the victims was premeditated,that being MJK.
Regards Richard.

[John G]

Hi,

Ripperologists sometimes seem to favour the "local guy" hypothesis even if they have no evidence connecting a person to the murders.

Perhaps they assume that most victims are murdered by someone they know. So it has to be someone living in the area.

My research has led me to a theory that opposes such a view. The person I have found did not live in Whitechapel. And still I have data connecting him to the murders.

Why would this person want to walk around in Whitechapel?

And why would all the local guys do the same?

This question of course says nothing about motives (although I know his motives).

But does it perhaps say anything about probability?

Another interesting question is:

If the local guy is the dismemberment murderer, what did he do in Battersea and Chelsea?

Regards Pierre

Hello Pierre,

I think he must have had local knowledge, considering Whitechapel was a complete labyrinth. Moreover, the fact that the murders occurred within a remarkably small area is also strongly indicative of a marauder, therefore local.

JtR wasn't the Torso killer, as the MO/signatures are drastically different. Moreover, there's no proof that most of the Torso victims were even murdered.

[Varqm]

Tough call. For a local guy,one,as Damaso pointed out the direction he was headed after Eddowes.Two, even after vigilantes and ordinary citizens were aware or trying to catch him and more cops on the streets (surely he must have known this) he stucked with Whitechapel. Like he had no choice.
Three the Hanbury murder.
On the other hand he was seen,possibly,at least 3x before a murder - Chapman.Eddowes and Kelly and he went on anyways.A bit confident he would not be identified.And the murders were near main streets.
He could have lived adjacent Whitechapel, a few miles maybe.This seem most likely to me,a bit pf both.
If a local,in the epicenter,most likely a night person and/or a nuthead risk taker.

my 3 cents

[Rosella]

In addition 'shabby-genteel' seems to be an inference by some witness to a man of the clerkly class. Someone, in other words, who doesn't perform manual labour but instead works in an office and still has to keep up appearances on not very much money.

[Mayerling]

I wonder if "shabby genteel" is a reference to a Thackeray story [Wiki: The Shabby Genteel Story]. It sounds like a pathetic compliment describing the kind of man who fashons himself (albeit conservatively) before going to a bar on a Friday nite. Someone dressing in a manner that impresses upon a mature ladys attention. I doubt his clothes were faddish. I would imagine if he was a local, these must have been among his 'better clothes'.

Thackeray loved the image of some member of the upper or middle classes trying to hold onto the last shreds of their dwindling stock of respectability as long as possible, or (in reverse) shooting all on the chance they can pretend to vast wealth they lacked (in "Vanity Fair", the chapter "How to Live Well on Nothing a Year" about Becky Sharp Crawley and her husband Major Rawdon Crawley living in a better area of London and never paying bills). Colonel Newcome in the novel "The Newcomes" has been unfairly impoverished and yet maintains a code of a gentleman until his death. Other authors touched on it too - Mark Twain (with Charles Dudley Warner) in his first novel "The Gilded Age" when Colonel Sellers tries to make a large dinner for guests with raw turnips he's found. And Shaw in Pygmalion shows us the economic mess of the Eynesford-Hill Family, who are nearly aristocratic but have few prospects (Freddy is hardly smart, and his sister Clara is either a shrew or tries to sound like she's up-to-date on the latest social trends*). So the
"shabby genteel" idea was fully active in the 19th Century, and we still adhere to it a bit now.

*If you recall, Shaw wrote a long postscript to the play about what happened to the various characters. He has Clara save herself by becoming a socialist and meeting Shaw's friend H. G. Wells. Freddy in this postscript marries Eliza and they run a flower shop with Colonel Pickering's help.

Jeff

[Robert St Devil]

It is popularly accepted that the ripper was probably a working class local, and rightly so. It isn't just "ripperologists" who have coalesced around that idea either - experienced criminologists also subscribe to it.

Mrs. Long described her suspect as "shabby genteel", incidentally, which does not mean "respectably-dressed" and certainly not "middle class". The ruffian who visited Mrs. Fiddymont's pub was also described that way, and "respectable" his appearance certainly wasn't.

I wonder if "shabby genteel" is a reference to a Thackeray story [Wiki: The Shabby Genteel Story]. It sounds like a pathetic compliment describing the kind of man who fashons himself (albeit conservatively) before going to a bar on a Friday nite. Someone dressing in a manner that impresses upon a mature ladys attention. I doubt his clothes were faddish. I would imagine if he was a local, these must have been among his 'better clothes'.

[Pcdunn]

Interesting discussion. I didn't know when the "local" idea started, but I do see the disappearance of the killer after Eddowes makes a lot of sense.