Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Jeff Leahy]

It isn't claimed Kozminski was seen leaving the square, in fact it may only mean Kozminski was known to frequent the area around Mitre Square, and was seen close by, by a City P.C. at some time.
In that context, the earlier mention of the City P.C. is not so suspicious, "No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was a beat [sic] near Mitre Square)..."

An interesting observation which I had not considered before

Many thanks Jon

[John G]

Hello Jeff,

Instead of vague terms such as "blitz attack", wouldn't it be more accurate to define JtR's MO as the ability to quickly overpower his victims without warning? I mean, Kelly might actually have been asleep at the time of the attack! That also seems to accord with the conclusions of Keppel et al. (2005).

However, surely clumsy and highly disorganized BS man adopted a very different approach. To begin with he attacks Stride in front of two witnesses, after the briefest of conversations; I mean, he doesn't even seem to make a token attempt to persuade her to accompany him to a more suitable murder location. And, instead of quickly overpowering her, he attempts unsuccessfully to pull her into Berner Street. And to what purpose? I mean, surely he didn't think that murdering and mutilating a victim in the middle of a potentially busy, and reasonably well-lit, street in a residential area was a good idea! Ironically, he moves her away from the pitch-black darkness of Dutfield's Yard, which would surely be a far more suitable location- at least it was hidden from view of local residents, such as Fanny Mortimer.

After clumsily throwing her to the ground- by which point he still hasn't even drawn his knife, in preparation for a swift kill -he affords her the opportunity to cry out, not once but three times. And then, instead of acting quickly to silence his victim, he instead focuses his attention on Schwartz, with the shout of "Lipski", giving Stride a further opportunity to cry out or attempt an escape, which she didn't take.

I mean, what an extreme contrast with Mitre Square, where Eddowes appears to have been silently lured to the darkest part of the Square, with her killer operating quickly and efficiently to immobilze, murder and mutilate his victim. Even the nightwatchman, working just a few yards away in a nearby building with the door open, saw her heard nothing.

No, I think an incompetent fool like BS man was the very antithesis of JtR.

[Garry Wroe]

You're working from the wrong perspective, John, in that you are assessing the evidence in a logical and objective manner. Try the alternative. Pick a suspect, look to find any evidence which seemingly adds credence to your argument, reject any evidence that doesn't, and learn the art of hammering square pegs into round holes. It works a treat.

[pinkmoon]

McWilliam's report as late as 19 October said no officer saw or heard anything prior to the discovery of the body. But what if Harvey relented sometime later and admitted he did see a man near the square (on Little Duke Street?), but not being accompanied by a woman, attached no significance to it?

Imagine if our killer had walked straight pass pc Harvey would Harvey at the time mention this he might have been afraid of ridicule or disciplinary action.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,
Instead of vague terms such as "blitz attack", wouldn't it be more accurate to define JtR's MO as the ability to quickly overpower his victims without warning? I mean, Kelly might actually have been asleep at the time of the attack! That also seems to accord with the conclusions of Keppel et al. (2005).

Well yes, but thats what I meant when using the word 'Blitz'. Remember that both endows and stride had reputations of being able to look after themselves. Poly and Annie were both worse for where and sic.

Kelly Appears to have put up a struggle and its possible the sheets were thrown over her.

However, surely clumsy and highly disorganized BS man adopted a very different approach. To begin with he attacks Stride in front of two witnesses, after the briefest of conversations; I mean, he doesn't even seem to make a token attempt to persuade her to accompany him to a more suitable murder location. And, instead of quickly overpowering her, he attempts unsuccessfully to pull her into Berner Street. And to what purpose? I mean, surely he didn't think that murdering and mutilating a victim in the middle of a potentially busy, and reasonably well-lit, street in a residential area was a good idea! Ironically, he moves her away from the pitch-black darkness of Dutfield's Yard, which would surely be a far more suitable location- at least it was hidden from view of local residents, such as Fanny Mortimer.

We reconstructed te Stride murder in some detail, trying to figure what each witness saw taking in there various view points. Its probable that as Schwartz crossed the road he had a poor site of Stride as BSM blocks his POV of Stride. He pulls her into the street and she screams three times but not very loudly….she is pale and white which might suggest BSM used a ligature or simply grabbed her scarf pulling it tight and cutting off the blood supply so she fainted.

Its always been curious to me how anyone can be described as screaming NOT VERY LOUDLY its a contradiction and I wonder if this a a translation problem describing a muffled gurgle as described by Harriot Lilly?

Stride thus falls unconscious to the floor. The disturbed BSM simply grabs Stride by the neck, takes three paces into the yard, cuts her throat and leaves passing Fanny Mortimers door on the way.

Stride breifly regains consciousness and draws herself into the fetal position.

Also bear in mind if Kozninski is the killer Dutfeild yard is more personal as he lived here when young and still lives only moments around the corner

I mean, what an extreme contrast with Mitre Square, where Eddowes appears to have been silently lured to the darkest part of the Square, with her killer operating quickly and efficiently to immobilze, murder and mutilate his victim. Even the nightwatchman, working just a few yards away in a nearby building with the door open, saw her heard nothing.

All we know about Mitre square is the man is stood talking to her. Lawende and Gang don't pay him much attention. We have no idea how long they had been there or what the conversation is.. So while i agree it seems different from the Berner street attack. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference. It fits with what we know about Jack

He walks around, talks to prostitutes they take him to a secluded places he jumps then suddenly and without warning. You can call it what you like but Jack is fairly consistent in my opinion.

No, I think an incompetent fool like BS man was the very antithesis of JtR.

Incompetent fool? Or a man experiencing Psychosis?

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

You're working from the wrong perspective, John, in that you are assessing the evidence in a logical and objective manner. Try the alternative. Pick a suspect, look to find any evidence which seemingly adds credence to your argument, reject any evidence that doesn't, and learn the art of hammering square pegs into round holes. It works a treat.

If you actually read the title of this thread it says 'Did the Seaside Home ID happen' As Kozminski is the only serious contender for this event it seems a fairly pertinent to consider Aaron Kozminski in this context, rather than run around shooting blanks into the air about other long since discarded suspects.

Yours Jeff

[Garry Wroe]

Ah as I suspected 'Samantic's'

Not semantics, an explanation as to how you managed to dig yourself into a deep, dark hole by using terminologies you clearly do not comprehend.

I'd imagine that Bill Beadle knows what the word Blitz means because he experienced it during the war…rather than cower behind some text book.

Am I to understand that you are now suggesting that the Ripper was a member of the German Luftwaffe?

However the FACT that jack the Ripper was a disorganised serial killer isn't changed to 'organised' because you impose a semantic argument or your own interpretation of the word blitz to a category you define as ruse.

It is not a fact that Jack the Ripper was a disorganized serial killer. It is a fact that certain members of the FBI defined him as such. The evidence, however, indicates an altogether different conclusion.

And whilst we are dealing with inaccuracies, please provide the evidence for the assertion that I have misinterpreted the term ‘blitz attack’, and that I further defined it as a ‘ruse’.

The crime remains what it is …

Crimes, not crime. This was a series of murders, not an isolated event.

… and expert Bill Beadle describes that as a blitz attack he was aware that the killer apparently spoke to Eddows and Chapman and given the last siting of Nichols almost certainly used the RUSE there.

Bill Beadle described the Ripper as a blitz attacker. He made no distinction between the individual crimes which constitute the Whitechapel Murders.

This requires no organisation just the ability to ask for business and go with the prostitute… He then used a blitz attack (NOte I'm using it in its commonly recognised form)

Let me remind you, then, that in attempting to justify your opinion of the Ripper as a blitz attacker, you cited the FBI’s Roy Hazelwood. You even stated that my definition of the blitz mode of attack was not that as specified by the FBI.

Remember?

The FBI’s crime analysts use a codified system for the analysis of offence-related behaviours in order that those behaviours can be accurately categorized and interpreted. Since the aim of this system is reliability it requires consistency and thus the application of precise definitions. When Roy Hazelwood refers to a blitz attack he does so from the perspective of the criminologist and therefore does not employ imprecise, colloquial terminology. He does not refer to a dog as a cat-like creature. Nor does he describe a bird as a bat with feathers. When using the term blitz attacker he does so because it describes a specific and discrete mode of behaviour. As I’ve already stated, a blitz attack in the criminological sense means a sudden, explosive and sustained outburst of violence initiated with little to no precrime interaction between the victim and perpetrator. More often than not under such circumstances first contact between the victim and assailant is the attack.

That is what Roy Hazelwood was referring to when stating his belief that the Ripper was a blitz attacker. No colloquialisms. No definitional elasticity. Just a straightforward descriptor as defined within the established FBI lexicon.

Again, you are the person who introduced the opinions of Roy Hazelwood. It was you who referred to him as an ‘expert’. But you’ve dug yourself into a hole owing to the fact that it has been demonstrated beyond any shadow of doubt that, in criminological terms (the idiom used by crime analysts such as Roy Hazelwood) Jack the Ripper was not a blitz attacker.

Unbelievably, you are now disputing the opinion of the very person you introduced to support your contention of a blitz attacker Ripper. You are arguing against the criminological definition of a blitz attacker as accepted by crime analysts such as Roy Hazelwood, contending instead that it relates to something entirely unconnected with the analysis of violent crime. Since you’ve even made reference to German bombing raids I can only conclude with the words Stewart used in response to one of your earlier posts.

God help us.

[pinkmoon]

Whoever was committing these vile crimes was hardly a criminal mastermind let's face it wondering around at night with a knife attacking and murdering women is hardly the work of a genius .I not saying that our killer has to be an uneducated person from the lower class of society he might well have been from a higher social class well educated as well who knows but one thing it is impossible to try and say for sure if he was a local low class polish Jew or a visiting "Toff" based on how these poor women were killed we're are trying to make sense of these crimes and we can't because the only person these crimes made sense to obviously had some very serious mental health issues these crimes will always make no sense to us but they must have made perfect sense to Jack the ripper who ever he was.

[John G]

Whoever was committing these vile crimes was hardly a criminal mastermind let's face it wondering around at night with a knife attacking and murdering women is hardly the work of a genius .I not saying that our killer has to be an uneducated person from the lower class of society he might well have been from a higher social class well educated as well who knows but one thing it is impossible to try and say for sure if he was a local low class polish Jew or a visiting "Toff" based on how these poor women were killed we're are trying to make sense of these crimes and we can't because the only person these crimes made sense to obviously had some very serious mental health issues these crimes will always make no sense to us but they must have made perfect sense to Jack the ripper who ever he was.

Hello Pinkmoon,

My understanding is that the majority of serial killers are deemed to have anti-social personality disorders, I.e they are psychopathic. However, such disorders do not constitute mental illness. In fact, I believe a relatively small minority of serial killers are deemed to be mentally ill.

[Abby Normal]

Well yes, but thats what I meant when using the word 'Blitz'. Remember that both endows and stride had reputations of being able to look after themselves. Poly and Annie were both worse for where and sic.

Kelly Appears to have put up a struggle and its possible the sheets were thrown over her.



We reconstructed te Stride murder in some detail, trying to figure what each witness saw taking in there various view points. Its probable that as Schwartz crossed the road he had a poor site of Stride as BSM blocks his POV of Stride. He pulls her into the street and she screams three times but not very loudly….she is pale and white which might suggest BSM used a ligature or simply grabbed her scarf pulling it tight and cutting off the blood supply so she fainted.

Its always been curious to me how anyone can be described as screaming NOT VERY LOUDLY its a contradiction and I wonder if this a a translation problem describing a muffled gurgle as described by Harriot Lilly?

Stride thus falls unconscious to the floor. The disturbed BSM simply grabs Stride by the neck, takes three paces into the yard, cuts her throat and leaves passing Fanny Mortimers door on the way.

Stride breifly regains consciousness and draws herself into the fetal position.

Also bear in mind if Kozninski is the killer Dutfeild yard is more personal as he lived here when young and still lives only moments around the corner



All we know about Mitre square is the man is stood talking to her. Lawende and Gang don't pay him much attention. We have no idea how long they had been there or what the conversation is.. So while i agree it seems different from the Berner street attack. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference. It fits with what we know about Jack

He walks around, talks to prostitutes they take him to a secluded places he jumps then suddenly and without warning. You can call it what you like but Jack is fairly consistent in my opinion.



Incompetent fool? Or a man experiencing Psychosis?

Yours Jeff

Neither. more than likely an inherently violent serial killer losing his temper.
(when faced with a woman who wont be tricked by his ruse).

[pinkmoon]

Hello Pinkmoon,

My understanding is that the majority of serial killers are deemed to have anti-social personality disorders, I.e they are psychopathic. However, such disorders do not constitute mental illness. In fact, I believe a relatively small minority of serial killers are deemed to be mentally ill.

I think personality disorder must fall into the mental health issues category.

[John G]

I think personality disorder must fall into the mental health issues category.

Technically at least such disorders are not classified as mental illnesses: see Kendell (2002) http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/180/2/110

[pinkmoon]

Technically at least such disorders are not classified as mental illnesses: see Kendell (2002) http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/180/2/110

I think we can all agree that the ripper had some sort of illness/disorder then.Or to put it another way he certainly wasn't normal.

[John G]

I think we can all agree that the ripper had some sort of illness/disorder then.Or to put it another way he certainly wasn't normal.

Yes. However, I don't think he was suffering from schizophrenia-he was too organized for that. Well, apart from BS man, that is, who appeared to be highly disorganized (and I wouldn't therefore completely dismiss the possibility that he could be Kosminski.) I think he was suffering from an anti social personality disorder, I.e he was psychotic.

[pinkmoon]

Yes. However, I don't think he was suffering from schizophrenia-he was too organized for that. Well, apart from BS man, that is, who appeared to be highly disorganized (and I wouldn't therefore completely dismiss the possibility that he could be Kosminski.) I think he was suffering from an anti social personality disorder, I.e he was psychotic.

He certainly knew what he was doing was wrong and he had a strong element of self survival by running away from the murder scenes he was never so engrossed that he forgot to leg it .