Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Monty]

Hello, Monty.

If it was something related to the Ripper case, would it have conceivably taken until July the next year for him to be dismissed?

But Macnaghten was getting the "P.C near Mitre Square" sighting from some source. It's one thing to speculate that a copper should've seen him, but he quite expressly states that the PC got a look at the killer.

As for why PC Harvey didn't sell his story to the press, would you like the world to know that it was your blunder that let the most notorious killer in England get away?

What error?

If Harvey did see something, he hadn't erred. Smith saw Stride with a man, yet he was not disciplined, and his testimony was released to all stations and newspapers.

Macnaghten, as a Met man, would have found it difficult, though not impossible, to have seen the Citys file on Eddowes. One would have expected him, for the purpose of a mere article, to solely stick with the Met files.

The sighting mirrors that of Smith I mention earlier.

Monty

[S.Brett]

I find the following article on Feb 19th 1894 in the Huddersfield Daily Chronicle very interesting as the "Jack The Ripper Story" has elements of Kosminski about it......Pat

I think it is about Cutbush:

https://books.google.de/books?id=A_atAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT127&lpg=PT127&dq=H+L+witness+jack+the+ripper&source=bl&ots=JqRp7oVSGW&sig=mq8x6FcpR893ESu_zNyFZiis_Y0&hl=de&sa=X&ei=8VFrVeXxKszWUcDrgbgN&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Scott Nelson]

Was Harvey Jewish?

[Monty]

Harvey was a Sussex man born.

I saw no signs of him being born into that faith Scott, nor any signs of conversion.

Monty

[Harry D]

What error?

If Harvey did see something, he hadn't erred. Smith saw Stride with a man, yet he was not disciplined, and his testimony was released to all stations and newspapers.

Macnaghten, as a Met man, would have found it difficult, though not impossible, to have seen the Citys file on Eddowes. One would have expected him, for the purpose of a mere article, to solely stick with the Met files.

The sighting mirrors that of Smith I mention earlier.

Monty

Hello, Monty.

PC Harvey is on record as saying he didn't witness anyone or anything suspicious that night. What if it came out later on that he did in fact see something but lied about it?

[Monty]

Hello, Monty.

PC Harvey is on record as saying he didn't witness anyone or anything suspicious that night. What if it came out later on that he did in fact see something but lied about it?

I see your point Harry, apologies.

I don't think that's an error, more a downright lie as you say.

However, I don't see why he would lie about such a thing.

Monty

[Harry D]

I see your point Harry, apologies.

I don't think that's an error, more a downright lie as you say.

However, I don't see why he would lie about such a thing.

Monty

Well that's what I want to get to the bottom of. When it comes to Macnaghten's "City PC" people are putting PC Harvey's name forward when he didn't include any sighting in his report. That means that Macnaghten was mistaken about the PC in question, or he was wrong altogether about any sighting, or that PC Harvey did see something but didn't reveal it at the time. What if PC Harvey had bumped into a man leaving Mitre Square, and after he found out about the murder realized that it was probably the killer he encountered and let get away? I don't think that's something many coppers would want to fess up to.

[Scott Nelson]

McWilliam's report as late as 19 October said no officer saw or heard anything prior to the discovery of the body. But what if Harvey relented sometime later and admitted he did see a man near the square (on Little Duke Street?), but not being accompanied by a woman, attached no significance to it?

[Monty]

Well that's what I want to get to the bottom of. When it comes to Macnaghten's "City PC" people are putting PC Harvey's name forward when he didn't include any sighting in his report. That means that Macnaghten was mistaken about the PC in question, or he was wrong altogether about any sighting, or that PC Harvey did see something but didn't reveal it at the time. What if PC Harvey had bumped into a man leaving Mitre Square, and after he found out about the murder realized that it was probably the killer he encountered and let get away? I don't think that's something many coppers would want to fess up to.

Harvey was a very experienced copper Harry, I think he knew the seriousness of what he witnessed if that was the case.

I fear we won't get to the bottom of what Macnaghten states.

Monty

[Garry Wroe]

Frankly it seems like your splitting hairs over some definition that differs from that given by Hazelwood.

Er, no, Jeff.

You provided a quote in which Roy Hazelwood postulated that the Ripper was a disorganized offender who used a blitz-style mode of attack. You also cited Bill Beadle, who believes that the Ripper attacked in blitz-style. Clearly you were attempting to imply the link of disorganized blitz attacker to Kosminski the disorganized schizophrenic.

The flaw in this line of reasoning, however, is that the Ripper did not employ a blitz mode of attack. The fact that he was seen with Kate Eddowes some distance from the Mitre Square crime scene demonstrates as much. So too does the lack of noise at the other crime scenes coupled with an almost total absence of defence wounds on the known victims.

Now you are saying:-

The way I've always used it and I presume how Bill Beadle is defining it, is that the women were caught suddenly by surprise when they reached the place they planned to have intercourse having no idea what there client would do. They were jumped.

Then it would help matters no end if you were to understand the terminologies you adopt before using them.

What tosh. Are you trying to argue that the average urban fox studied at Cambridge and is this years cox for the boat race.

You’ve responded with similar irrelevant nonsense on a number of occasions now. If there’s a point being made I’m struggling to identify it.

However I was quoting Hazelwood from the recent 'Scotland Yard Prime Suspect' where he writes the forward and there is nothing in that book where i find myself in strong disagreement with what he says

Really? Even the demonstrably inaccurate assertion that the Ripper attacked in blitz mode?

KOZMINSKI WAS THE SUSPECT

I’m aware of what Swanson wrote with regard to Kosminski the suspect, Jeff. What I asked you to do was provide some element of official confirmation that Kosminski was identified as Jack the Ripper. Once again you have responded to a question that was never asked.

Only Anderson/Swanson and arguably Monroe knew about the ID. MacANughten didn't have a clue, thus he favoured Druit

Pure speculation. Nothing more.

We don't know that Major Smith was talking about kozminski.

Yes we do. Major Smith stated that there was no evidence to implicate any Jew in the Ripper murders.

Any Jew.

This was the same Major Smith, remember, who orchestrated the round-the-clock surveillance operation on Kosminski. Thus he knew Kosminski and was almost certainly aware that Anderson was attempting to implicate him in the murders.

Stride almost certain was a ripper victim in my opinion. The murders are far to close together both in timing and location for there to be any real doubt.

As I stated previously, the difference in crime scene signature between Stride and the other victims was that of night and day. Were this a latter-day case no competent crime analyst would include Stride in the overall series. The evidence simply isn’t there.

Most of the arguments put forward to dismiss her tend to be in err, and I tend to quote Tom Wescott when claims like a different knife was used are raised.

I made no mention of a different knife. None whatsoever. I stated that the throat wound was different in character to the neck incisions inflicted upon Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Unlike those women Stride’s death was not instantaneous. Her skirts were not lifted to the waist. There was no abdominal mutilation. No sign of strangulation or suffocation. She was also found lying on her side rather than on her back as was the case with all of the known victims. On top of this she was almost certainly killed by Broad Shoulders, the aggressive drunk who assaulted her in full view of two onlookers. Not content with this he also verbally abused one or both of these witnesses.

So not only did the Berner Street murder deviate entirely from the Ripper’s established crime scene signature, but the assault of a victim in the presence of witnesses was unique to the Stride murder.

Even more damning for the Stride-as-Ripper-victim argument is the near-certainty that Eddowes was seen with her killer a short time later. Lawende and party were not racially abused by Eddowes’ companion, and nor did they observe anything in the way of drunken or menacing behaviour. In fact the conduct of this man was so markedly different from that exhibited by Stride’s assailant that it becomes difficult to imagine that they were one and the same individual.

All of which raises some interesting questions if Kosminski really was identified by Schwartz at the Seaside Home.

[Wickerman]

The fact Macnaghten dropped the reference does suggest he recognised his error.

The City PC is mentioned twice in the Aberconway version.
Macnaghten writes about Kozminski:
"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

It isn't claimed Kozminski was seen leaving the square, in fact it may only mean Kozminski was known to frequent the area around Mitre Square, and was seen close by, by a City P.C. at some time.
In that context, the earlier mention of the City P.C. is not so suspicious, "No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was a beat [sic] near Mitre Square)..."

Macnaghten mentioned the City P.C. in connection with Kozminski because he has been identified as a suspect. Not that his being seen in that area was meant to imply on the night of the murder.

Regardless, this reference was removed, so why do we spend time talking about a reference that was removed?

[pinkmoon]

The fact Macnaghten dropped the reference does suggest he recognised his error.

The City PC is mentioned twice in the Aberconway version.
Macnaghten writes about Kozminski:
"This man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City P.C. near Mitre Square."

It isn't claimed Kozminski was seen leaving the square, in fact it may only mean Kozminski was known to frequent the area around Mitre Square, and was seen close by, by a City P.C. at some time.
In that context, the earlier mention of the City P.C. is not so suspicious, "No one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer (unless possibly it was the City P.C. who was a beat [sic] near Mitre Square)..."

Macnaghten mentioned the City P.C. in connection with Kozminski because he has been identified as a suspect. Not that his being seen in that area was meant to imply on the night of the murder.

Regardless, this reference was removed, so why do we spend time talking about a reference that was removed?

I remember reading that there is meant to be a list made at the time of strides murder of people who were found in the yard when the police arrived on the scene it contained 27 names it has been suggested that if Kosminski was the local Looney wondering round at all hours then he might have been attracted by the commotion so he might have found his way to the yard and managed to get his name on the list.

[Wickerman]

I remember reading that there is meant to be a list made at the time of strides murder of people who were found in the yard when the police arrived on the scene it contained 27 names it has been suggested that if Kosminski was the local Looney wondering round at all hours then he might have been attracted by the commotion so he might have found his way to the yard and managed to get his name on the list.

Hi PM.
I do recall a number similar to that, 26 or 27 or so, members in the Club who were checked & questioned by police. I don't recall them all being in the Yard though.

[pinkmoon]

Hi PM.
I do recall a number similar to that, 26 or 27 or so, members in the Club who were checked & questioned by police. I don't recall them all being in the Yard though.

I think it was stated that the list had disappeared but I'm sure it was people who were in the yard when the police arrived.Anyway if we ignore the list there is no doubt that if Kosminski was wandering round at all hours he would have been attracted to the murder sites purely due to the commotion maybe a policeman recognised him on maybe more than one occasion .

[Jeff Leahy]

You provided a quote in which Roy Hazelwood postulated that the Ripper was a disorganized offender who used a blitz-style mode of attack. You also cited Bill Beadle, who believes that the Ripper attacked in blitz-style. Clearly you were attempting to imply the link of disorganized blitz attacker to Kosminski the disorganized schizophrenic.

Ah as I suspected 'Samantic's'

I'd imagine that Bill Beadle knows what the word Blitz means because he experienced it during the war…rather than cower behind some text book.

Any basic google for the word BLITZ makes its mean quite clear: Information about blitz in the free online English dictionary and encyclopedia. the blitz, ... blitz - attack suddenly and without warning; "Hitler blitzed Poland"

However the FACT that jack the Ripper was a disorganised serial killer isn't changed to 'organised' because you impose a semantic argument or your own interpretation of the word blitz to a category you define as ruse.

The crime remains what it is, and expert Bill Beadle describes that as a blitz attack he was aware that the killer apparently spoke to Eddows and Chapman and given the last siting of Nichols almost certainly used the RUSE there.

However I'd imagine he'd use these words in there correct sense.

The flaw in this line of reasoning, however, is that the Ripper did not employ a blitz mode of attack. The fact that he was seen with Kate Eddowes some distance from the Mitre Square crime scene demonstrates as much. So too does the lack of noise at the other crime scenes coupled with an almost total absence of defence wounds on the known victims.

Your using a semantic argument to support something that never happened. You clearly don't know how prostitutes plyd there trade, and you'd do well to check out Don Rumblows explanation of how they operated. (He was a policemen in the area during the 1960's) They would stand in conspicuous places and then take there clients to somewhere secluded once they had done the 'business' as Don colloquially refers.

This requires no organisation just the ability to ask for business and go with the prostitute… He then used a blitz attack (NOte I'm using it in its commonly recognised form) If you have ever actually been to Church passage you'll know that the distance to the murder spot can be covered in seconds.

While nothing was heard at the Eddows murder at all the other KNOWN murder sites people did hear things you just choose to ignore the FACT.

The lack of defence wounds is of course consistent with a sudden and surprising BLITZ attack. It does however appear that Kelly may have struggled, this is because the killer wasn't behind her.

Then it would help matters no end if you were to understand the terminologies you adopt before using them.

I presume you struggle with the word Tomato, pronouncing the letter 'A' incorrectly

You’ve responded with similar irrelevant nonsense on a number of occasions now. If there’s a point being made I’m struggling to identify it.

URBAN FOX: Its a sly opportunistic animal, largely nocturnal, that wanders the streets at night scavenging. If it comes across a chicken coup and can get in, its well known for killing everything inside in a Blitz attack.

The point is that Jack the Ripper required nomore organisation than the average urban fox. If you accept that Smith and Tabram were early victims than changing his MO to carry a longer sharper knife, shows jack is able to learn and adjust. But you are still dealing with a killer that wanders the streets and picks up opportunity as it happens killing in a final and sudden attack much like hitlers bombers during the second world War.

Really? Even the demonstrably inaccurate assertion that the Ripper attacked in blitz mode?

Its been agreed that Jack had the ability to hold a basic conversation to do 'Business' (As clearly explained in Definitive Story) how ever when these woman took Jack to the murder location he used what everyone in the UK would call a Blitz attack, a sudden and over whelming fury much like hitlers bombers during world war two. That gave these women little or any chance of self defence, the attack being total violent and sudden. (Tomato)

I’m aware of what Swanson wrote with regard to Kosminski the suspect, Jeff. What I asked you to do was provide some element of official confirmation that Kosminski was identified as Jack the Ripper. Once again you have responded to a question that was never asked.[/FONT][/COLOR].

KOZMINSKI WAS THE SUSPECT

Yes we do. Major Smith stated that there was no evidence to implicate any Jew in the Ripper murders.

If you had been keep up with the thread you would have noted that this is not totally true as H L Adam claim Smith had in private told him something quiet different.

This was the same Major Smith, remember, who orchestrated the round-the-clock surveillance operation on Kosminski. Thus he knew Kosminski and was almost certainly aware that Anderson was attempting to implicate him in the murders.

Only MacNaughten and Swanson ever mention the name Kozminski. In the context that Swanson uses it 'Kozminski was the Suspect' it can be gleaned that Kozminski was also Anderson's suspect. Anderson said to Smith:

Dear Smith, Your volume of reminiscences is very interesting, especially where you explain how the police didn't capture Jack the Ripper. But take WARNING. We scotland Yard men have given some hard knocks as our time, and the people we dealt with have still a little kick in them. Keep to ripper stories, and the worse you can do will be to make Dr Forbes Winslow rush into print. Don't tell your other doings, as you may get into a mess like I did when I told the secret history of the Parnell Commission. Yours Truly R Anderson

As I stated previously, the difference in crime scene signature between Stride and the other victims was that of night and day. Were this a latter-day case no competent crime analyst would include Stride in the overall series. The evidence simply isn’t there. [/FONT][/COLOR]

Your not looking at a different signature your looking at the same signature which is simply incomplete. Presumably because Jack was spooked probably given the estimated times of death by Schwartz.

Double events in serial killers are not uncommon I recently gave a lecture describing a similar event the night Elizabeth Figg was murdered or you might check the Sally Anne Bowman murder.

I made no mention of a different knife.

No I thought Id cut you off before making a basic error

. I stated that the throat wound was different in character to the neck incisions inflicted upon Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly. Unlike those women Stride’s death was not instantaneous. Her skirts were not lifted to the waist. There was no abdominal mutilation. No sign of strangulation or suffocation. She was also found lying on her side rather than on her back as was the case with all of the known victims. On top of this she was almost certainly killed by Broad Shoulders, the aggressive drunk who assaulted her in full view of two onlookers. Not content with this he also verbally abused one or both of these witnesses.

STRIDE. The throat was deeply gashed: in the neck was a long incision which exactly corresponded with the lower border of her scarf; the incision commenced on the left side, 2 1/2" below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 1/2" below the angle of the right jaw, but without severing the vessels on that side.

What you are looking at is the same signature that is simply incomplete.

So not only did the Berner Street murder deviate entirely from the Ripper’s established crime scene signature, but the assault of a victim in the presence of witnesses was unique to the Stride murder

It does not deviate. Its the same signature simply incomplete. The killer had less time. Swanson MacNaughten and Anderson all believed Stride a ripper victim. Swanson was there on the ground and with time to investigate, so i'll simply stick with an EXPERT.

Even more damning for the Stride-as-Ripper-victim argument is the near-certainty that Eddowes was seen with her killer a short time later. Lawende and party were not racially abused by Eddowes’ companion, and nor did they observe anything in the way of drunken or menacing behaviour. In fact the conduct of this man was so markedly different from that exhibited by Stride’s assailant that it becomes difficult to imagine that they were one and the same individual.

By there own admission they paid the man little attention and would not recognise him again.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]All of which raises some interesting questions if Kosminski really was identified by Schwartz at the Seaside Home

KOZMINSKI WAS THE SUSPECT

Yours Jeff