Did the Seaside Home ID happen?

[Garry Wroe]

I have it on good authority from the honourable Cabal member of Hull, that there was a Psychic Program on Kozminski (Which I knew nothing about) it does not and never did contain the name Jeff Leahy

Oh, so of course, this must be the programme that I saw. It must be because you say so.

PS take your argument with Jon else where please, as other idiots here are accusing me of being off topic, brilliant.

‘Other idiots’. You, of course, being an intellectual colossus.

Back to the Crawford letter …

[Jeff Leahy]

I saw what I saw.]

No Garry you saw a psychic program on Kozminski. You googled my name and noted I had made psychic programs many years ago(Although not on JtR)

And you made a story up trying to score some cheap points, putting incorrect information together.

your now digging yourself an even bigger hole trying to get yourself out of the one you dug in the first place..pathetic

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

In the Kozminski family tree I once saw the name "Davis". That is all I can say about that. Of course there was the company Thomas Davies/ Jacob Cohen/ Woolf Abrahams. But is it important ?

-Brothel 254 Whitechapel Road-

I remember that Inspector Sagar had also been involved in a brothel raid. I think, it took place in Aldgate High Street (Bull Inn Yard) in December 1890 opposite the Butchers Row.

Sagar (everyone knows it):

"We had good reason to suspect a certain man who worked in 'Butcher's-row,' Aldgate," he said, "and we watched him carefully. There was no doubt that this man was insane, and after a time his friends thought it advisable to have him removed to a private asylum. After he was removed there were no more Ripper atrocities."

I'm still trying to get my head around how this might work. If I get what I think your suggesting here that Kozminski attacked his sister in Bricklane on 22nd Nov 1888 and there was a witness.

Sagar gets back on Kozminski's trail following the Alice McKenzie murder (Not Cox?)

When the sister changes her mind about her brother the original witness for that attack comes into play?

Yours Jeff

[Garry Wroe]

Absolutely unbelievable, Garry derails the thread with aload of irrelevant rubbish he's made up …

I have made up nothing.

… about imaginary programs …

I saw what I saw.

… and semantic references to the definition of a serial killer …

You can’t even get that right. I referred to the essence of a blitz attack Ripper and thus the reliability of the FBI interpretation which you believe adds weight to your contention that Kosminski and Jack the Ripper were one and the same. The fact that you’d rather bang on about the Crawford letter and suchlike says much about your approach to the case.

… and another idiot turns up claiming I've derailed the thread, unbelievable.

There you go again, insulting a poster who did no more than try to restore a little order on to this thread.

[Jeff Leahy]

I don’t think so. I’m not the one resorting to histrionics and schoolyard rhetoric.]

Garry will you please just shut up and admit you are wrong. I have it on good authority from the honourable Cabal member of Hull, that there was a Psychic Program on Kozminski (Which I knew nothing about) it does not and never did contain the name Jeff Leahy….Only in your imagination did that happen, it is no longer available on the internet according to my source…so give up.

Will you now admit to your error and shut up, so that we can continue discussing the ID, as someone has recently postulated an alternative to Schwartz as a witness that the grown ups might like to discuss, as its an interesting new idea

Yours Jeff

PS take your argument with Jon else where please, as other idiots here are accusing me of being off topic, brilliant.

[Garry Wroe]

There are four people named Jeff Leahy listed at the Internet Movie Database.

Interesting.

Garry apologized in an earlier post if he had mixed you up with another person.

That’s right, Pat. Hence my insistence that a certain poster neither reads nor absorbs the information presented. It’s a recurrent theme in his posting history.

[Garry Wroe]

I have myself had cause to question assertions made by this same member. Replies like, "I am too busy at the moment", or "I am not sufficiently interested", betray the fact no such justification existed for the assertions being made.
This looks to me like a repeat performance.

That’s not the way I recall events. You took a newspaper report, omitted a salient part of it, misconstrued the remainder, and then made claims which were subsequently exposed as having been untrue. Should anyone be in any doubt over the issue here’s a link to the discussion under scrutiny:-

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=339817#post339817

The fact that you are now questioning my integrity says more about your honesty than it does mine. I would encourage posters to examine the thread in question and draw their own conclusions.

There again, Jon, should you wish to continue this on the appropriate thread, please do so. I’ll follow you there.

[Garry Wroe]

Your somewhat missing the point here Garry.

I don’t think so. I’m not the one resorting to histrionics and schoolyard rhetoric.

You claim to have seen a program directed by myself that clearly I've never been involved with.

I saw a programme with your name on the credits. I also apologized unreservedly in the event that I had confused you with someone else. But you don’t read and you don’t absorb.

So you are either inventing something in your mind …

I’m inventing nothing.

… in order to create trouble …

Trouble? Trouble for whom and to what end?

… or you did see something on a TV channel which has broken copyright regulations.

Well, I certainly saw something. As for copyright regulations, I neither know nor care.

Should that be the case like any author whose pictures are used without permission I have the right to take this up with Directors UK.

Then do it. Break the habit of a lifetime and actually do something for yourself. But don’t expect me to do it for you.

Frankly given that you have currently failed to provide any sort of proof to support your claims to the existence of this program …

That’s right. I spent hours trawling the internet for any sign of the programme, failed to find it and gave up. I couldn’t care less if it never turns up. And I care even less about your juvenile tantrums.

… I am given to the former judgement and my original reaction that it never 'existed' and was a total fabrication on your part. Which makes me wonder how much else you've claimed is the product of the same fertile imagination.

If I was going to trust to anything, it certainly wouldn’t be your judgement. You’ve made a career out of alienating others courtesy of unsubstantiated allegations and generally unacceptable posting behaviour. This is just another example of such.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Having read the opinion of Dr Biggs, Trevor Marriott's forensic pathologist, I am of the opinion that the time of death estimates given by the Victorian GPs can no longer be relied upon.

I just don't see where this takes us. We simply have to accept the timings could be out, it doesn't mean they were. And actually Blackwells time of death is sort of confirmed by Schwartz in a reverse senario

Regarding Morris Eagle. The Coroner asked him this question, concerning his return to the club: "Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then?" He replied: "I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates."

Yes he said it was dark. Obviously Defintive Story doesn't depict that for obvious reasons. But he didn't trip over a body or see or indeed smell anything for that matter. Surely its more logical to assume she was not there at that time.

I think, however, your scenario involving Stride separating from Brown's suspect, and then being seen by Schwartz, is intriguing. I must admit that it's something I hadn't previously considered, assuming instead that Brown's evidence contradicted Schwartz's as to timings. I would agree that in this scenario the suspect would then probably be Pipeman, who may have been following Stride after her apparent rejection of him: "Not tonight, some other night."

Yes just adding to that that Brown had his back to the couple the whole way home so he would not have seen what happened to them once he passed them unless he looked back. And the timing is just about possible for Stride to cross the road and be in Dutfeild Yard gateway by the time BSM arrives at the gateway…I've paced it out a few times.

I doubt Stride was being strangled as Schwartz heard her screaming. After all, Schwartz mentions BS man calling out Lipski, apparently to Pipeman, after the screaming incident so he was clearly still paying attention; and he doesn't mention BS man strangling Stride.

'She screamed three times but not very loudly' aren't you struck by the apparent contradiction in that sentence, how does someone scream quietly?

I'm also not sure how the killer would have pulled Stride "three steps into the Yard." Thus, if she was still on the ground at this stage surely there would have been consequential damage to her clothing, as well as bruising and/or grazing to her skin; but there were no abrasions of any kind.

He grabs her by the scarf pulling her backwards. 'He pulled her into the street' She is choaking 'screams three times not loudly' the blood supply is cut off to the brain and she faints. The killer turns and shouts 'lip ski' stride is unconscious…Scwartz and Pipeman run. BSM grabs the scarf around her neck pulling the unconscious woman into the yard by the scarf… Cuts her throat once, deeply and walks off…All happens so quick that she is left holding the cachous

Yours Jeff

[John G]

Hi Jeff,

Having read the opinion of Dr Biggs, Trevor Marriott's forensic pathologist, I am of the opinion that the time of death estimates given by the Victorian GPs can no longer be relied upon.

Regarding Morris Eagle. The Coroner asked him this question, concerning his return to the club: "Do you think you are able to say that the deceased was not lying there then?" He replied: "I do not know, I am sure, because it was rather dark. There was a light from the upper part of the club, but that would not throw any illumination upon the ground. It was dark near the gates." It is therefore possible that Stride could have been killed prior to Eagle's return to the club, i.e. at around the time of the PC Smith sighting at 12:35.

I think, however, your scenario involving Stride separating from Brown's suspect, and then being seen by Schwartz, is intriguing. I must admit that it's something I hadn't previously considered, assuming instead that Brown's evidence contradicted Schwartz's as to timings. I would agree that in this scenario the suspect would then probably be Pipeman, who may have been following Stride after her apparent rejection of him: "Not tonight, some other night."

I doubt Stride was being strangled as Schwartz heard her screaming. After all, Schwartz mentions BS man calling out Lipski, apparently to Pipeman, after the screaming incident so he was clearly still paying attention; and he doesn't mention BS man strangling Stride.

I'm also not sure how the killer would have pulled Stride "three steps into the Yard." Thus, if she was still on the ground at this stage surely there would have been consequential damage to her clothing, as well as bruising and/or grazing to her skin; but there were no abrasions of any kind.

Mortimer's evidence is interesting, though. Dr Blackwell checked his watch when he arrived at Dutfield's Yard and recorded a time of 1:16. PC Lamb said he'd been there about 10-12 minutes before Dr Blackwell's arrival, say 1:05. Louis D said that the first police officer arrived at the scene was about 7 minutes after his discovery of the body, suggesting a time of 12:58. Mrs Mortimer said sh'd been inside about 4 minutes when she heard Louis arrive, suggesting she'd been outside between 12:44 and 12:54.

[Jeff Leahy]

PS Morris Eagle: He returned at 12.35am and as the front door was shut, he went through the open gates of Dutfield's Yard in order to enter the club via the back door. It was very dark, too dark to see if anybody was lying there and he did not remember seeing anybody in Berner Street.

Morris Eagle suggests that Stride was not laying 'dead' at 12.35. So it seems probable that she was killed between this time and 1 am

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

I think there are numerous scenarios that could be considered.

For instance, Stride could have been killed by PC Smith's suspect at, say, 12:35, and Schwartz witnessed a completely separate incident, involving a different victim, at 12:45. .

Its possible, but this wouldn't match Blackwells time of death, And woulnt Morris Eagle have seen the body?

I just think it unlikely that Stride was attacked twice or that Schwartz witnessed another couple. These things are always possible but just unlikely

Or Schwartz could have witnessed an assault on Stride between 11:45-Mortmer's sighting- and 12:35, Smith's sighting. .

Schwartz was fairly certain he turned into Berneer Street at 12.45, the same time Brown left the shop. Although Brown looking ahead at the couple would not have seen Schwartz.

Its always been possible that Brown did see Stride and that she split from her man and crossed the road to Dutfield yard. That would leave the man she was with as a possible Pipeman on the board school side of the road rather than the pub side.

Or Schwartz, like Violena, could be lying. This would be explain the lack of injuries, after being thrown to the ground, .

I just think its simpler to assume everyone tells the truth to the best of their ability. We have no reason to suspect Schwartz is lying. Also if he did make it up he got lucky as has timings actually fit the other witnesses.

Stride holding on to the cachous, and nobody but Schwartz hearing her scream-including Fanny Mortimer who, apparently, could hear the tread of a police officer passing and the approach of Louis's pony and cart.

If schwartz witnessed the attack 'she screamed three times but not very loudly" this could be a translation of someone being strangled and passing out, consistent with her colour pale white. This would explain the reflex action holding onto the Cachous.

The killer simply pulls her three steps into the yard cuts her throat and leaves passing Fannys door…the measured sound of a policeman or a measured Killer?

Stride is only feet from fanny when she comes to the door but out of sight by a 90 degree angle, she may even have regained consciousness for a while or she simply slowly bleed to death 12.50/55

Fanny goes back inside (10 minutes at door) and hears the pony and cart around 1am

Yours Jeff

[John G]

Even if Stride was wearing the flower Brown could not have seen it from his POV, the man she was with stood between them.

And while its possible that Schwartz timings were out there is actually no requirement to assume so, as everyones accounts including Mortimers fit a 12.45 window.

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I think there are numerous scenarios that could be considered. For instance, Stride could have been killed by PC Smith's suspect at, say, 12:35, and Schwartz witnessed a completely separate incident, involving a different victim, at 12:45. Or Schwartz could have witnessed an assault on Stride between 11:45-Mortmer's sighting- and 12:35, Smith's sighting. Or Schwartz, like Violena, could be lying. This would be explain the lack of injuries, after being thrown to the ground, Stride holding on to the cachous, and nobody but Schwartz hearing her scream-including Fanny Mortimer who, apparently, could hear the tread of a police officer passing and the approach of Louis's pony and cart.

I also agree that the double event is plausible. However, it seems to me that BS man's MO is very different from that of the other C5 murders, i.e. attacking a victim in front of witnesses; trying to pull Stride into the street (away from the darkness of the Yard, and towards a public area); launching a clumsy direct assault after a very brief conversation.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jon,

It's worth noting that he failed to recall the flower she was wearing, as did Marshall and Brown, who may also have wrongly identified Stride. In this context, it's possible that his timing was accurate, but that Stride was already dead, or died later, i.e closer to 1:00am or before 12:45pm.

The possibilities seem endless!

Even if Stride was wearing the flower Brown could not have seen it from his POV, the man she was with stood between them.

And while its possible that Schwartz timings were out there is actually no requirement to assume so, as everyones accounts including Mortimers fit a 12.45 window.

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

My understanding is that Lawende identified Grainger in 1895, i.e. possibly several years after Kosminski's supposed identification. Could it therefore be possible that Lawende initially identified Kosminski but then started to have doubts?

Its possible John, as these things always are. I just think it unlikely that having ID Kozminski that he would later be asked to ID another suspect. Anderson was pretty clear that it was a positive ID and the suspect knew he had been recognised.

Then there is the question of the Sadler ID that some believe is the source of a confusion: "James Sadler was arrested on Sunday 15th February 1891 for the murder of Frances Coles and charged the following day. The notion that he was also being suspected of the other Whitechapel Murders is borne out by the fact that he appeared in a line-up in which a witness to a previous case (possibly Joseph Lawende[10])was used, although after confronting Sadler, the witness failed to identify him."

The only viable alternative as a witness would seem to be Schwartz. However, there are major issues over the reliability of his evidence regarding Stride's murder and, of course, the possibility that Stride wasn't a Ripper victim.

Schwartz is my preferred suspect for many reasons. Mainly because of all the witnesses schwartz had the best and clearest view. He was of a similar age to Kozminski at the time and may also have worked as a Taylor.

From what little we know the refusal to testify seems to fit better with Schwartz than Lawende.

But of course if I understood correctly someone has also muted a member of Kozminski's own family following the Brickane incident on 22Nd November.

In fact, is it possible that some senior police officers could have accepted that Kosminski may have murdered Stride, especially considering his connections to the local area, but that the other C5 victims were possibly murdered by someone else?

Yes, its always seemed logical that if the Crawford letter relates to inside information then the location of Dutfield Yard is extremely important even personal.

I'd add that Swanson and most of the senior police officers included Stride as a ripper victim. The MO is similar to Jacks and simply looks like an incomplete attack to me.

However I'm aware a number of eminent authors have muted Aaron Kozminski killed Stride but not the other four. I've simply never been convinced by this argument since reconstructing Sally Anne Bowmans murder I see the double event as very plausible, the two containing similarities.

MAny thanks
Yours Jeff