Favourite 'wildcard' suspect?

[Barnaby]

My two wildcards for the Ripper are Kelly and Lechmere, but I'm not sure if either truly qualifies as a wildcard.

Regarding serial killers who hunt in different locales: Are they less common or simply less likely to get caught? I'd say less common in 1888 but today I'm not sure.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Funny you should say that, I was going to make a topic posing that very question: would MJK have been murdered in the same way if she was an earlier victim?



Was it ever established if Thomas was related to Charles Henry Cutbush?

Think those doing the research concluded there was no evidence of them being related.

[Harry D]

I tend to think the goal all along was the obliteration of a body, rather than a progression, and given the opportunity Mary Kelly would have happened much earlier.

Funny you should say that, I was going to make a topic posing that very question: would MJK have been murdered in the same way if she was an earlier victim?

Also had his support among the police fraternity (at least one policeman).

Was it ever established if Thomas was related to Charles Henry Cutbush?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Definitely Tommy Cutbush, although I wouldn't call him a wildcard.

I tend to think the goal all along was the obliteration of a body, rather than a progression, and given the opportunity Mary Kelly would have happened much earlier.

This puts someone like Cutbush in the frame for me.

Also had his support among the police fraternity (at least one policeman).

PC Smith saw a clerkly man with Stride not long before her death, although being fair Lawende's man would rule him out and that's a tricky one for me.

[Harry D]

Hi Harry,

BS man certainly comes across as being very disorganized, which is one of the reasons why I've argued in the past that he probably didn't kill Stride. However, Napper was paranoid schizophrenic and was also diagnosed with Aspergers, which is why I've also argued that Kosminski can't be ruled out.

What is odd about Napper is that in some respects he comes across as very disorganized, I.e the Rachel Nickell murder, which I think is very reminiscent of Tabram; of course, this is what you would expect from someone diagnosed with schizophrenia. However, he also had highly organized elements to his strategy, and is suspected of being the Green Chain Rapist, in which guise he may have committed at least 70 savage attacks.

Thus, in his rented room the police found a torch, restraining cord and medical notes on how to torture people. There was also an illustration of the neck showing how human muscles work and interact.

Moreover, he had an A-Z with black dots on the maps marking locations of assaults and surveillance points, where he could observe possible victims without being seen.

It's very confusing, but demonstrates that even apparently highly disorganized killer's -Napper attacked women in public parks, in broad daylight, leaving his DNA- can have extremely organized elements to their crimes.

Thanks, John G. I had read about Robert Napper keeping an A-Z, but some of those other points were new to me and certainly changes my perception of him slightly. Just goes to show that the dichotomy of organised and disorganised killers is an oversimplification. Someone like Napper proves that there can be overlap, and that's more or less what I believe the Ripper was - an otherwise 'disorganised' killer with 'organised' traits.

The focus on the lower abdomen and removal of reproductive organs suggests that the Ripper had a sexual motive, but the Ripper wasn't interested in having intercourse with his victims before or after the murders and left no semen at the murder scenes. That's something I find particularly curious.

[Fisherman]

I was not suggesting he most probably came in using some form of transport other than his two feet. We know people walked long distances (Romford, anyone?) when it suited them, but the killer could just as easily have lived or worked on the outskirts of Spitalfields or Whitechapel, as right at the centre, coincidentally surrounded by desperate and vulnerable women who would go like lambs to the slaughter.

I just don't accept the usual arguments made for one being more likely than the other.

Love,

Caz
X

I would say - and that´s not just because I favour Lechmere for the killer´s role - that if we are to accept a commuter killer, then this person would probably have at the very least some sort of knowledge of the killing fields in which he meant to strike. Very many serialists do have a comfort zone in which they work, and of course, such a comfort zone will be knit to their daily habits, normally - the area around where they live, an area where they have spent a lot of time, perhaps in earlier years of their lives, or an area where their work takes them and accustomes them.

There are examples of commuter killers today, but I would suggest that this is very much related to the growing knowledge among the perpetrators of how these kinds of crimes are often possible to tie to the culprit by means of geography. Therefore, those who are set on killing and who have knowledge of these matters, will to a larger extent kill in different jurisdictions, different parts, and so they increase their chances of staying uncaught. If the knowledge about how serialists will normally prey on a confined district where they know their ways around had not been readily available, I think that many of todays commuter killers would have been stationary killers instead.
If there was no added advantage in commuter killing, then why do it?

The only ones that would still be very probable to become commuter killers would be those who led a vagrant style of life, to whom being on the move constantly, was an inherent trait.

And the Whitechapel killer seems not to have been the latter sort of a man, since he used the exact same confined space all the time - no travelling the country there!

In conclusion, I would say that the weighed-up odds tell us that the chance that the killer had little or no previous knowledge of the Ripper killing grounds when he set out is very small indeed. The much more credible answer is that he either lived in the exact area or had reason to be there on a daily basis - and the extensive intimate knowledge that follows with these prerequisites.

He was a local man - either living in the Ripper killing fields or working there. Or traversing it frequently for whatever reason.

If he WAS commuting into the area without living in it or having his work - or road to work - there, then I would say that he had quite probably lived or worked there before, for as long a time as it took for him to regard the area as a comfort zone.

[Fisherman]

Hi Harry,

BS man certainly comes across as being very disorganized, which is one of the reasons why I've argued in the past that he probably didn't kill Stride. However, Napper was paranoid schizophrenic and was also diagnosed with Aspergers, which is why I've also argued that Kosminski can't be ruled out.

What is odd about Napper is that in some respects he comes across as very disorganized, I.e the Rachel Nickell murder, which I think is very reminiscent of Tabram; of course, this is what you would expect from someone diagnosed with schizophrenia. However, he also had highly organized elements to his strategy, and is suspected of being the Green Chain Rapist, in which guise he may have committed at least 70 savage attacks.

Thus, in his rented room the police found a torch, restraining cord and medical notes on how to torture people. There was also an illustration of the neck showing how human muscles work and interact.

Moreover, he had an A-Z with black dots on the maps marking locations of assaults and surveillance points, where he could observe possible victims without being seen.

It's very confusing, but demonstrates that even apparently highly disorganized killer's -Napper attacked women in public parks, in broad daylight, leaving his DNA- can have extremely organized elements to their crimes.

To me, BS man does not come across as disorganized - he comes across as tipsy.
Once we dub people disorganized - or organized - we tent to dub them killers too ...

Nighty-night!

[John G]

Do you think it's possible that the Ripper was a Napper-type? Here we have a killer who murders a woman in broad daylight, in a public place, and calmly walks away from the murder scene like nothing happened before fading into anonymity. Let's also not forget that it was a fingerprint that busted Napper, a luxury the Victorian police didn't have. It was also police incompetence that allowed Napper to remain undetected whilst attention was turned to an innocent party.

I think the BS Man incident is something that arguably gives credence to this idea of the Ripper being someone like Napper. If Schwartz is to be believed, we have a man attacking a woman outside a busy social club, in a front of witnesses with little attempt at subterfuge. Soon after the woman is found dead. Now, either Stride was the unluckiest woman in the world to be attacked by two men in the space of a few minutes, or the logical conclusion is that BS Man was the murderer, and a disorganized one at that.

One key difference is that there was more of a sexual element to Napper's murders. He was a serial rapist who targeted attractive young women and sexually assaulted two of his murder victims. As far as we know, the Ripper didn't engage in sex with any of his victims, not even the comely Mary Kelly, who he had all to himself. If there was any kind of sexual motivation to the Whitechapel murders, then obviously it was the act of murder and mutilation itself that gratified the killer, unless he was impotent.

Hi Harry,

BS man certainly comes across as being very disorganized, which is one of the reasons why I've argued in the past that he probably didn't kill Stride. However, Napper was paranoid schizophrenic and was also diagnosed with Aspergers, which is why I've also argued that Kosminski can't be ruled out.

What is odd about Napper is that in some respects he comes across as very disorganized, I.e the Rachel Nickell murder, which I think is very reminiscent of Tabram; of course, this is what you would expect from someone diagnosed with schizophrenia. However, he also had highly organized elements to his strategy, and is suspected of being the Green Chain Rapist, in which guise he may have committed at least 70 savage attacks.

Thus, in his rented room the police found a torch, restraining cord and medical notes on how to torture people. There was also an illustration of the neck showing how human muscles work and interact.

Moreover, he had an A-Z with black dots on the maps marking locations of assaults and surveillance points, where he could observe possible victims without being seen.

It's very confusing, but demonstrates that even apparently highly disorganized killer's -Napper attacked women in public parks, in broad daylight, leaving his DNA- can have extremely organized elements to their crimes.

[Fisherman]

Taking a line along Hanbury Street from the first two murders it is only a mile walk as the crow flies to Islington.

Lets make it 2000 meters,which is a 25 minute stroll.

Sounds just about right to me ...

[Harry D]

Hi Rosella,

It's remarkable what a killer can get away with if they remain calm and controlled. Robert Napper murdered Rachel Nickell on Wimbledon Common in front of her young child. He slit her throat and stabbed her 49 times, on a summer's day in broad daylight. He then walked calmly away, drenched in blood and still carrying the knife. However, no one saw or heard anything, despite the fact that dozens of people were criss-crossing the common, including the Commissioner's own wife!

Do you think it's possible that the Ripper was a Napper-type? Here we have a killer who murders a woman in broad daylight, in a public place, and calmly walks away from the murder scene like nothing happened before fading into anonymity. Let's also not forget that it was a fingerprint that busted Napper, a luxury the Victorian police didn't have. It was also police incompetence that allowed Napper to remain undetected whilst attention was turned to an innocent party.

I think the BS Man incident is something that arguably gives credence to this idea of the Ripper being someone like Napper. If Schwartz is to be believed, we have a man attacking a woman outside a busy social club, in a front of witnesses with little attempt at subterfuge. Soon after the woman is found dead. Now, either Stride was the unluckiest woman in the world to be attacked by two men in the space of a few minutes, or the logical conclusion is that BS Man was the murderer, and a disorganized one at that.

One key difference is that there was more of a sexual element to Napper's murders. He was a serial rapist who targeted attractive young women and sexually assaulted two of his murder victims. As far as we know, the Ripper didn't engage in sex with any of his victims, not even the comely Mary Kelly, who he had all to himself. If there was any kind of sexual motivation to the Whitechapel murders, then obviously it was the act of murder and mutilation itself that gratified the killer, unless he was impotent.

[DJA]

Absolutely, Caz - if this commuter killer had the double advantage of living outside the heat zone, but knowing it intimately, even having reason to traverse it on an everyday basis, then what more can we ask for?

Taking a line along Hanbury Street from the first two murders it is only a mile walk as the crow flies to Islington.

Lets make it 2000 meters,which is a 25 minute stroll.

[Fisherman]

Hi John,

This all makes perfect sense, but similar arguments can be made the other way round. If the streets were too hot for a commuter killer, why would they not be equally hot for a local one? What was the problem with a local killer shifting himself to those other East End districts, if he found it impossible to control his murderous urges while the heat was still on? If this was the killer's comfort zone (eg if he had found it the best place in the past for cheap, anonymous sex), he may have had no interest in trying his luck elsewhere, whether he lived and worked close to his victims or not so close.

Also, the ease with which he was able to escape detection could have been down to encountering each victim on a main road and accompanying her to a quieter location just off it, then simply retracing the few steps alone and being out of Spitalfields, and out of any danger of being searched, almost before the body was discovered and the alarm raised. It could have been as quick, and possibly quicker, for an outsider to leave the immediate search area via one of these main thoroughfares (eg Commercial St or Rd, Whitechapel Rd), when you consider an insider's escape route would have kept him right there on the hottest streets until he could reach his own doorstep.

Taking the apron from Eddowes and not dumping it until he reached Goulston Street could have been a ruse to make everyone think he was a local man. This has always smacked to me of diversion tactics, rather than giving away a clue to where he was heading. The risk of using this route was the same, whether he had to use it because it was his way home, or chose to use it, before disappearing out of the district, possibly via Liverpool Street.

Additional advantages for a commuter killer would have been to be somewhere else when the house-to-house searches were going on, not there to be recognised again by potential witnesses between murders, and not suspected by anyone in his own neck of the woods.

Love,

Caz
X

Absolutely, Caz - and you know who you put in the frame by this reasoning, of course!
... and if this commuter killer had the double advantage of living outside the heat zone, but knowing it intimately, even having reason to traverse it on an everyday basis, then what more can we ask for?

[Rosella]

Yes Caz, I agree. The killer could well have lived on the borders of Whitechapel and Spitalfields and not lived right in the centre. I suppose I meant by 'immediately' in terms of time when the alarm being raised and police being informed and on the lookout for the perpetrator.

I do think Jack was almost caught at Dutfield's Yard and may well have taken the opportunity to scuttle off when Louis D. Went inside to check on his wife and collect some of the others.

[caz]

Hi Caz,
However, with the exception of Polly Nichols none of the victims were found immediately, and therefore the alarm wouldn't have been raised immediately.

Well, Rosella, we don't know for sure how long Annie Chapman had been dead when she was found. Stride may have been found almost immediately (indeed, the killer may have been interrupted by the horse and cart), and Eddowes was very probably found almost immediately after the killer departed.

However, we don't know where Jack lived...

Exactly, and nothing can tell us whether it was at the heart of the 'tiny area these murders encompassed', a short walking distance outside it, or a longer trek away.

I was not suggesting he most probably came in using some form of transport other than his two feet. We know people walked long distances (Romford, anyone?) when it suited them, but the killer could just as easily have lived or worked on the outskirts of Spitalfields or Whitechapel, as right at the centre, coincidentally surrounded by desperate and vulnerable women who would go like lambs to the slaughter.

I just don't accept the usual arguments made for one being more likely than the other.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz,

Access to transport, such as a pony and cart, could have been an important factor. In other words, without transport a local killer may have been wary of travelling outside of the familiarity of his comfort zone, i.e. the immediate locality, as this could mean a lengthy trek by foot through unfamiliar districts.

Hi John,

Just one more point here - what happened to all those prostitutes said to ply their trade in all parts of the East End? Why would a 'trek' need to be any lengthier for a local killer than a non-local one?

The argument was that a non-local one (who nevertheless found Spitalfields the most convenient hunting ground for whatever reason) could easily have gone elsewhere to kill when the heat got too much, but why would he have fared any better in unfamiliar streets than one based within the murder zone itself? The non-local killer, not wanting to dirty his own doorstep (and that's assuming his doorstep had plenty of vulnerable potential victims close by, which is by no means a given) had to choose somewhere else where he could feel comfortable doing his thing. He wouldn't necessarily know his way round the rest of the East End any better than a Spitalfields man.

Love,

Caz
X