Was JTR a local?

[MayBea]

... now you're making your own definition of what blue collar means. If truckers and sailors are not blue collar you should inform them of their upgrade "status".

I didn't mean they weren't "blue collar". I meant it's not representative.

Truckers are only one part of one segment, the sample is small, and it's hard to become white collar when you're at sea and in the military.

Although I'd rather not use the terms white or blue collar, I do have my own definitions or perceptions of what they mean.

The same goes for the definition of local. It shouldn't be strictly based on a general definition, but based relative to something that can be measured, like the length of residence of other residents. Otherwise it can be misinterpreted. A one year resident or even ten years is not the same as someone who lived there all their lives.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
Sorry, meant to reply but got tied up (not literally!!).

I apologise for being vague, but my book (Cream's biography) will be out in a few months, so I don't really want to reveal his motive yet.

As for Jack, I'm merely speculating that he had the same motive as Cream based on the severity of the mutilations caused to the women. Although Cream employed a different method of ending life, I think that the level of hatred toward the victims was the same. Both inflicted suffering or wounds to a degree that there would be no chance of the victim surviving the poisoning, or in Jack's case attack. Both murderers displayed signs of premeditation and in my opinion both murderers had enough charm to ensure that their victims didn't feel threatened by going in to dark alleyways with them.
Just my humble instincts of course...

Amanda

Thanks Amanda
Congrats on your book!

[Amanda]

Oops...

Yes.No worries. It was poster Amanda who said they had the same motive. And I've asked her what it was

Hi Abby,
Sorry, meant to reply but got tied up (not literally!!).

I apologise for being vague, but my book (Cream's biography) will be out in a few months, so I don't really want to reveal his motive yet.

As for Jack, I'm merely speculating that he had the same motive as Cream based on the severity of the mutilations caused to the women. Although Cream employed a different method of ending life, I think that the level of hatred toward the victims was the same. Both inflicted suffering or wounds to a degree that there would be no chance of the victim surviving the poisoning, or in Jack's case attack. Both murderers displayed signs of premeditation and in my opinion both murderers had enough charm to ensure that their victims didn't feel threatened by going in to dark alleyways with them.
Just my humble instincts of course...

Amanda

[gnote]

My point was actually that one needs better analysis without bias.

The examples of "blue collar" prostitute killers Ben gave me are two actual business owners, two truckers, two Navy sailors, a pre-med student who failed because he was a thief, and a black guy from Missouri.

I wouldn't include the last two guys for sure, same for the sailors, and the two truckers don't qualify for me as particularly significant when that's the only representative example you have and the average first year guy makes $40,000.

You initially posted "By my estimation, the only Caucasian blue collar I can think of was Shawcross but he was in jail for 20 years."

One list of serial killers was given and now you're making your own definition of what blue collar means. If truckers and sailors are not blue collar you should inform them of their upgrade "status".

[MayBea]

...I think the real point is that guys like rifkin frequent sex workers the most

The only stats I've ever seen put the average income for a "john" at $42000 in 2004 in Vancouver.

The majority, 58%, is under 40000. (See chart p. 4 of link below) So it looks like the "average Joe" is the majority as you say.

But that equates to over 50000 today and I'm looking at that as someone in a service industry at top rate. So I'd put the cut off in 2004 at $30000 and say its 41% who were "average Joes" based on the chart.

http://www.popcenter.org/problems/st...ution_2004.pdf

This puts the profile more in line with the "well-heeled" outsider visiting the red-light district for anonymity.

Graph on page 6 shows that the majority of johns arrested were outsiders to Vancouver's East End prostitution district. In outlying towns and suburbs, the vast majority of johns arrested were locals.

[Abby Normal]

G'day Abby

So did I misunderstand when you said they had the same motive??

Yes.No worries. It was poster Amanda who said they had the same motive. And I've asked her what it was

[GUT]

Hi gut
Yes I did, at least part of it. But your last post asked me what I thought jacks was.

G'day Abby

So did I misunderstand when you said they had the same motive??

[Abby Normal]

My point was actually that one needs better analysis without bias.

The examples of "blue collar" prostitute killers Ben gave me are two actual business owners, two truckers, two Navy sailors, a pre-med student who failed because he was a thief, and a black guy from Missouri.

I wouldn't include the last two guys for sure, same for the sailors, and the two truckers don't qualify for me as particularly significant when that's the only representative example you have and the average first year guy makes $40,000.

"..and a black guy from Missouri." Wow.

Didn't know that was a descriptor of income level/occupation. Yikes.

[Ben]

Even if rifkin ran a one man operation landscaping business, that's still manual labor. I think the point is that serial killers who target prostitutes tend to be average joes and not super rich guys driving flashy cars and lots of money to waste

Spot on, Rocky.

If there's a central "bullet point" here, let it be this one!

[RockySullivan]

Even if rifkin ran a one man operation landscaping business, that's still manual labor. I think the point is that serial killers who target prostitutes tend to be average joes and not super rich guys driving flashy cars and lots of money to waste. It's not an absolute anyway but I think the real point is that guys like rifkin frequent sex workers the most

[Abby Normal]

And others suggest revenge, or to try and clean up the area, or to bring attention to the plight of these "unfortunates", any are possible none are certain.

And didn't you earlier say Cream's was money?

Post #63

Hi gut
Yes I did, at least part of it. But your last post asked me what I thought jacks was.

[MayBea]

Originally Posted by GUT View Post
Good point, whenever we try and put anyone in a little box there is plenty of overlap and in my opinion serial killers just don't fit and they are so few in number it is simply impossible to try and say, no serial killer has ever "xxxx" so none ever will or most serial killers are "yyy" so all must be.

My point was actually that one needs better analysis without bias.

The examples of "blue collar" prostitute killers Ben gave me are two actual business owners, two truckers, two Navy sailors, a pre-med student who failed because he was a thief, and a black guy from Missouri.

I wouldn't include the last two guys for sure, same for the sailors, and the two truckers don't qualify for me as particularly significant when that's the only representative example you have and the average first year guy makes $40,000.

[Ben]

Hi MayBea,

At least two of the examples you give us, Ben, owned their own business. Rifkin and Hansen.

That didn't preclude either of them from being blue collar and working class.

Thanks for reminding me about Robert Pickton, though. Another good example. Jack Unterweger is another.

All the best,
Ben

[Spider]

The murders appear to somewhat spread about from the central area where Tabram was killed right? It is a real mystery whether the killed lived there but to the murder in 29 hanbury for instance implies the killer had intimate details of the location.?

I think it just implies that any working girl in the area would know it intimately, the killer wouldn't need to. They would basically lead clients to their own regular secluded spot where they didn't expect to be disturbed.

[GUT]

The pleasure, more than likely with a sexual component, that he derived from killing and cutting up women.

And others suggest revenge, or to try and clean up the area, or to bring attention to the plight of these "unfortunates", any are possible none are certain.

And didn't you earlier say Cream's was money?

Post #63

Hi Amanda
The difference being- Cream was killing prostitutes, and others, for monetary gain and to avoid being caught for botched abortions and to blackmail people. Totally different type of killer.