Who really witnessed Jack the Ripper?

[Michael W Richards]

the possible mistake could be Abberline assuming that Issenschmidt was the man seen and followed after Chapman's murder.

I haven't read everything, but so far, I haven't seen the man being formally identified by the two women in the public house and the man who followed him.

"It is not known if Isenschmid was ever formally identified as the man Mrs Fiddymont, the landlady of the Prince Albert public house, 21 Brushfield Street, better known as the 'Clean House,' had seen entering the pub at 7am on the 8 September, shortly after the murder of Annie Chapman. The man's rough appearance had frightened her. Fiddymont was in the pub talking to a friend, Mary Chappell, when she noticed the man's shirt was torn and that he had blood splashes on his hand and below his ear. He was wearing a dark coat and a brown stiff hat pulled over his eyes. The man ordered, and quickly drank his half pint of four ale, and left the pub, whereupon he was followed by Joseph Taylor, a builder who lived at 22 Stewart Street. Taylor, who was described as a perfectly reliable man, well known throughout the neighbourhood, said, 'The man walked very rapidly with a peculiar springy walk that I would recognise again, he carried himself very erect, like a horse soldier. His neck was rather long, and he was holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him and his appearance was exceedingly strange'. Taylor watched the man go as far as Dirty Dicks in Half-Moon Street. He described the man as thin, about 5ft 8"tall, 40/50 years of age with a ginger coloured moustache, curling at the ends. And short sandy hair, his eyes, wild like hawk's, and dressed shabby genteel, with a loose fitting pair of trousers and a dark coat.

As Isenschmid was described as early 40's about 5ft 7"tall, very ferocious looking with ginger hair and a normally powerful build, now shrunken with starvation, it would be a fair assumption to say that Isenschmid was the man who called into Mrs Fiddymont's pub."

Seems like a fairly good possibility that Jacob may have had something to do with Annies murder...and due to the very similar nature of the murders of Polly and Annie, maybe both.

Problem is...if you are considering a suspect for a murder ONLY if he was available to perform later Canonicals, then Jacob isn't Jack. But then, where is it written in stone that this Jack fellow killed all five women?

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Kelly went out on the streets after she saw Blotchy.

Yes Jon, It was stated by a witness that she was out after 11:45, that witness did not live in the courtyard or at 26 Dorset, and no-one from that address saw her alive after 11:45pm....it was also stated by a witness that she spoke with someone at around 8:30am, that witness was told before she gave her testimony that her statement disagrees with the other facts in this case..like the est. TOD.

As we know well from these cases, a witness statement does not a fact make.

Cheers Jon

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello Sir. John.

"Abberline believed the man seen drinking a beer just after Chapman's death was Isenschmidt. Maybe that's where Abberline made a mistake. I think this man described and followed could be the ripper."

I don't understand. Where's the mistake?

Cheers.
LC

the possible mistake could be Abberline assuming that Issenschmidt was the man seen and followed after Chapman's murder.

I haven't read everything, but so far, I haven't seen the man being formally identified by the two women in the public house and the man who followed him.

"It is not known if Isenschmid was ever formally identified as the man Mrs Fiddymont, the landlady of the Prince Albert public house, 21 Brushfield Street, better known as the 'Clean House,' had seen entering the pub at 7am on the 8 September, shortly after the murder of Annie Chapman. The man's rough appearance had frightened her. Fiddymont was in the pub talking to a friend, Mary Chappell, when she noticed the man's shirt was torn and that he had blood splashes on his hand and below his ear. He was wearing a dark coat and a brown stiff hat pulled over his eyes. The man ordered, and quickly drank his half pint of four ale, and left the pub, whereupon he was followed by Joseph Taylor, a builder who lived at 22 Stewart Street. Taylor, who was described as a perfectly reliable man, well known throughout the neighbourhood, said, 'The man walked very rapidly with a peculiar springy walk that I would recognise again, he carried himself very erect, like a horse soldier. His neck was rather long, and he was holding his coat together at the top. He had a nervous and frightened way about him and his appearance was exceedingly strange'. Taylor watched the man go as far as Dirty Dicks in Half-Moon Street. He described the man as thin, about 5ft 8"tall, 40/50 years of age with a ginger coloured moustache, curling at the ends. And short sandy hair, his eyes, wild like hawk's, and dressed shabby genteel, with a loose fitting pair of trousers and a dark coat.

As Isenschmid was described as early 40's about 5ft 7"tall, very ferocious looking with ginger hair and a normally powerful build, now shrunken with starvation, it would be a fair assumption to say that Isenschmid was the man who called into Mrs Fiddymont's pub."

[lynn cates]

mistake

Hello Sir. John.

"Abberline believed the man seen drinking a beer just after Chapman's death was Isenschmidt. Maybe that's where Abberline made a mistake. I think this man described and followed could be the ripper."

I don't understand. Where's the mistake?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

And on the subject of problems...
The description given by PC Smith had the suspect wearing a hard felt hat, all published versions from Oct. 1st to 3rd agree on this.
Only at the Inquest did PC Smith then add "Deerstalker".

If this was a mistake (though it is hard to explain how), the man seen by PC Smith could well have been the same man Stride was with at the Bricklayers Arms, he wore a hard felt hat.

As to moving Schwartz's sighting to 12:15-17, that would conflict with PC Smiths sighting at 12:35, a time that can hardly be moved due to the timing of the constables beat. He will have known from pure habit where he would be at any given time, which makes any adjustments by modern theorists very limited.

Also, Packer's sighting at about 12:30 also places Stride & client at the same location as described by PC Smith - they complement each other, assuming Packer told the truth about that detail.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I believe Schwartz was right in his description, but I don't think the man was JtR. I think she was killed by JtR, but this man wasn't her killer.

Abberline believed the man seen drinking a beer just after Chapman's death was Issenschmidt. Maybe that's where Abberline made a mistake. I think this man described and followed could be the ripper.

For some reason, I'm not buying Hutchinson. I'm not saying that he is lying, but there is something fishy in the description, and the timing of it.

So, to make things absolutely time wasting for you people, I don't think there is enough anywhere that could point in the right direction.

This said, I haven't been here long, and I certainly didn't read everything, but I believe Stride and Eddowes to be both JtR victims. So any matching descriptions of the man in both places could be certainly be of interest.

[Dr. John Watson]

I've often wondered about this. The problem, it seems to me, is in approaching events from a 21st century rather than an 19th century, perspective. Thus, Schwartz claimed to have witnessed an assault at 12:45 am, but how do we know that time was accurate? As a poor man it is probably unlikely Schwartz possessed a watch, let alone an expensive, accurate watch, and even if he did we cannot know if he checked the time whilst witnessing the assault.

If he was, say, just 10 minutes out on his timings his evidence surely becomes even more crucial.

You're quite right about the times, John. They're all approximate, including those given by PC Smith. This was discussed in depth some time back on another thread, where the time of Schwartz's appearance at the scene was matched with times reported by other witnesses. As I recall, evidence seemed to support the actual time of Schwartz's sighting as 12:15 and 12:17 a.m., but as you point out, no one looked at their watch (even if they had one) and the only time accepted as fairly accurate is that given by Diemschutz, who stated he pulled into Dutfield's Yard and found Stride's body at 1:00 a.m. exactly.

Timeless John

[Dr. John Watson]

What's up, Doc?

Are the descriptions of Pipeman and Salt & Pepper that contrasting, if we entertain the possibility of the Ripper switching clothes?

Schwartz described "pipeman" as almost 6 foot tall, wearing dark overcoat and black, hard-felt wide-brimmed hat. Lawende described his suspect as "5 ft 7-8 ins" wearing a loose jacket and grey-cloth, peaked cap, with a red kerchief around his neck, resembling a sailor. No comparison at all. And given the distance and short time between the sightings, I don't see the killer taking the time to change his clothing, especially since he would have no reason to do so.

John ("Bugs") Watson

[John G]

Timing accuracies

Hello all,

Further to my previous Post, didn't Edward Spooner estimate that he arrived at the scene of the Stride murder at 12:35 when, in actually fact, it must have been at least half an hour later as, by this time, the body had already been discovered?

[John G]

Schwartz may not have seen the murder.
Swanson admitted there was enough time (10-15 mins?) after Schwartz left for another man to appear on the scene.

I've often wondered about this. The problem, it seems to me, is in approaching events from a 21st century rather than an 19th century, perspective. Thus, Schwartz claimed to have witnessed an assault at 12:45 am, but how do we know that time was accurate? As a poor man it is probably unlikely Schwartz possessed a watch, let alone an expensive, accurate watch, and even if he did we cannot know if he checked the time whilst witnessing the assault.

If he was, say, just 10 minutes out on his timings his evidence surely becomes even more crucial.

[Harry D]

Pipeman is a very unlikely suspect. The description given by Schwartz doesn't come close to matching the guy seen with Eddowes, who was almost certainly her killer.

What's up, Doc?

Are the descriptions of Pipeman and Salt & Pepper that contrasting, if we entertain the possibility of the Ripper switching clothes?

[Harry D]

Mary Cox was the only witness who got a look at the killer just before he killed. And she saw him up close as he and Mary Kelly entered the very room she was murdered in a short time later.

Cox described the man as having “blotches on his face, small side whiskers, and a thick carroty moustache.” She said he was between 35 and 36.

Vincent van Gogh was 35 at the time, had blotches on his face and a red mustache and beard.

Oh, and Mrs. Fiddymont and her friends also saw him in her bar after he killed Chapman.

Vincent van Gogh was Jack the Ripper.

Aaaaand now my topic has officially jumped the shark.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

That did cross my mind, and I would defo apply that to someone who had been attacked blitz style. But in the case of what Schwartz had said he had seen, I think if Schwartz was telling the truth, then that would mean the murder would have been dragged out, therefore Stride would be struggling and I would guess that to get a good grip on the assailant she would have dropped everything she was holding and would proceed to at least strike, pull, pry someones hands off of her.

Schwartz may not have seen the murder.
Swanson admitted there was enough time (10-15 mins?) after Schwartz left for another man to appear on the scene.

[Vincent alias Jack]

And of course two people report seeing her the following morning.

Caroline Maxwell's statement that she saw Kelly the next morning between 8-9 was determined to be incorrect by the police, and the estimated time of death proves the error. It was obvious to all that Maxwell was mistaken.

Dale Larner

[Vincent alias Jack]

Not since she was seen on the streets after she was seen to take Vincent [or Blotchy] to her room.

No, not the case.

Dale Larner