For those who don't believe in "JTR"

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting...

I suppose it's theoretically possible the 1888 torso killings were a sort of continuation of the 1870s bunch, but somehow I think the timegap between the two series is a little too much...

But to connect them with "Jack"?

Totally different MO...totally different (as far as we can tell) methodology...totally different body presentation/disposal...I have to say I find that hard to believe.

Whilst it seems hard to believe that there WERE two entirely separate serial killers floating around the same city at the same time, I do have to observe that in the LVP, East End London was a truly unique phenomenon after all
...nowhere else before or since was so simultaneously, densely populated, culturally diverse, poverty-stricken, rootless, godless and helpless...and I don't think any degree of profiling or whatever will properly reflect that...so yes I think it's entirely possible two (or even more) serial killers were in circulation

All the best

Dave

Just for the sake of argument Dave,....Mary was cut to pieces indoors, presumably so were the Torsos, Mary has flesh cut away to expose bone..just as the Torso killer would have had to do,... Marys right arm is almost completely disjointed from her body, and her head is almost decapitated from her body. Both things would have been done by Torso man on his way to creating his abbreviated victims.

In fact Mary appears very much like a cadaver being de-engineered as a means of satisfying curiosity, achieving an objective or for educational purposes. But its just like Torso man would have treated his victims bodies.

Cut skin from bone, disjoint, move on. Excise organs, move viscera aside, move on. Problem with marrying the 2 murderers is that none of Marys extremities were actually severed completely. One would think that a Torso maker would do that.

Cheers

[Lechmere]

Yes Observer
He could have been poor but I don't think he did it because he was poor specifically.

[Observer]

Hi Ed

I'd agree. And that was the point (not very successfully it seems haha)I was making to Cogidubnus, who seems to think it's possible the Godless East End, due to it's depravity produced two mutilators of prostitutes in the space of four months. So I agree, the killer of those six prostitutes didn't spring from the gutter, it took a strange bird indeed to commit those crimes, a strange bird indeed. I doubt poverty played a hand.

[Michael W Richards]

Could you please succinctly explain your reasons for believing so?

Hi Harry,

I respect your commitment to the topic so Ill try and succinctly state my rationalizing that position;

1. There are dramatic differences in the wounds made on some victims within Jacks assumed roster
2. There are known villains aplenty in Victorian Londons East End.
3. The only motive that has been suggested for the crimes is a desire to kill randomly...a motive that requires the least amount of physical and circumstantial evidence. This presumably is because there is no evidence of any kind pointing to any one individual in any Canonical death.
4. A chief medical investigator found physical wound differences in 2 of the 4 Canonical women he examined personally.
5. Jack the Ripper is a made up name for someone who is presumed to have killed at least Polly and Annie, perhaps also Martha, (based on the letter date.)
6. There is no physical evidence that demands all five Canonicals were dispatched by the same person, for the same reason, in the same fashion.

Its more a refusal to take someones word for something Harry when it can be determined that at this point in time there is no way to prove or disprove it.

Anyone who felt that the world wasn't flat at a time when everyone else assumed that it was would have been branded as crazy, or at least confused. The point being that until something can be proven authentic, it isn't. Im optimistic that one day Ill read about how proof has been discovered that Jack the Ripper did not kill some of those 5 women, because what I am all about here is letting any innocent names rest in peace. I really don't need a name for a killer of any of the women...its done. No-one can be punished.

Cheers Harry

[Lechmere]

No Observer, they didn't.
But did the relative poverty in the East End specifically produce the Whitechapel Murderer?
The South Bank was poorer, more godless, generally as overcrowded, just as rootless, had its fair share of cultural variations (more Irish, less Jewish).
But the torsos don't really fit a South bank perpetrator.
The idea that the culprit sprung from the meanest and most atavistic of the spawning masses is one of those Victorian prejudices that should not be influencing our understanding of the case now.
In my opinion.

[Observer]

Unique?
Try the LVP South Bank

And the Seven Dials,and the Devils Acre, and Jacob's Island, and....well you get the idea. As far as I know they didn't produce anyone on a par with The Whitechapel Murderer, not near in fact.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.You may be right.

But ask me about the car that just passed on my street.

Cheers.
LC

I would, but you were too busy talking to me to notice anything....

[Lechmere]

Unique?
Try the LVP South Bank

[Cogidubnus]

Interesting...

I suppose it's theoretically possible the 1888 torso killings were a sort of continuation of the 1870s bunch, but somehow I think the timegap between the two series is a little too much...

But to connect them with "Jack"?

Totally different MO...totally different (as far as we can tell) methodology...totally different body presentation/disposal...I have to say I find that hard to believe.

Whilst it seems hard to believe that there WERE two entirely separate serial killers floating around the same city at the same time, I do have to observe that in the LVP, East End London was a truly unique phenomenon after all
...nowhere else before or since was so simultaneously, densely populated, culturally diverse, poverty-stricken, rootless, godless and helpless...and I don't think any degree of profiling or whatever will properly reflect that...so yes I think it's entirely possible two (or even more) serial killers were in circulation

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

perhaps

Hello Jon. Thanks.You may be right.

But ask me about the car that just passed on my street.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Would that not be like remembering any work person passing by?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.
Yes it would.
Remembering a pushcart, a horse & cart, a carriage or wheelbarrow, costermongers, fruit sellers, anyone pushing or riding on a conveyance of any description at any time of day or night.
Thats how the police start an investigation, dozens of leads until they whittle them down.

[lynn cates]

remember

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Would that not be like remembering any work person passing by?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon.

"here we have someone carrying a woman's torso."

Indeed. But how carried? Perhaps as a parcel in a wheelbarrow? Much less risk.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn.

Less risk from inquisitive constables, but far more noticeable, and likely memorable by anyone on the street.

[lynn cates]

sensible

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Now THAT is a sensible position to have. I realise it is a tough sell; and, frankly, I'm not sure I wish to sell it. I prefer to let all weigh it and decide.

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'day Lynn

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Well, we know that there were ladies killed and that only their torsos remained. We know further that they were moved from point A (place killed) to point B (place found)--I make no mention about intermediate points.

The suggestion is that they were likely concealed by cloth or such and wheeled to point B in a barrow, or similar.

Now, by parity of reasoning, IF there were a killer who collected "trophies," and IF he wished to transport them, I see no overweening law of nature to prevent their being wrapped, etc.

Cheers.
LC

While I am far from persuaded by the multiple killer hypothesis I am open to persuasion, there are certainly worse ideas floating around.