So would he have run?

[drstrange169]

Hello Lechmere,

I've measured the distance on a couple of old maps and my way is coming up shorter, but not by much. There maybe factors I'm not account for, but the fact remains, my way travels the fastest safe route. Your way goes through the very worst areas a working man could go through.

I'm assuming your way is,
Montague, Wentworth, Middlesex, Harrow, White, Devonshire, Liverpool, Blomfield and Eldon. (Blue)

Mine is,
Hanbury, Lamb, Spital, Primrose, Appold, Finsbury and Eldon. (Red)

(Sorry I'm at work and can't post an old map)

[Lechmere]

Regarding distance, it is a measured fact that the old Montague Street route was shortest.
Referring to my Booth map there is one very short dark blue-black section on Wentworth Street by the top end of George Yard (where the soldier safely loitered on the night Tabram was killed).
The Booth map isn't a crime map.
Claiming he would avoid the Old Montague Street route for safety reasons makes his walking down Bucks Row seem strange as that was supposedly the haunt of gangs.

[Lechmere]

Dr strange
As I said you cannot do better than to say that a suspect could have done the crimes within the times given - and with Lechmere you can.
It could very easily have been the case the the given times definitely ruled him out but they do not.

[Lechmere]

Ben
You have no evidence whatsoever that Hutchinson or Fleming ever went in the Princess Alice or went down Old Montague Street and it is stomach churningly nauseating to claim otherwise.
Similarly being out on those deserted dark streets without good reason during the autumn of terror would be an incitement to arrest with all those beat coppers about - like one of those vomit inducing non alibi alibis that gets argued over on those lengthy and often bad tempered Hutchinson threads.

[drstrange169]

Hello Lechmere,



Re: hearing footsteps quote.

I'm stupid. Of course! Fishman quoted it in the first post.

Re: timings.

Most clocks weren't synchronized, so using one man's time against anothers
has no practical purpose unless there was a striking clock heard by both men. For example,

"Policeman George Myzen said that at a quarter to four ..."
(The Star/Daily News)

"Robert Paul said ... On the Friday he left home just before a quarter to four..."
(Daily News)"

"Police-constable Neil, 97 J, who found the body, reports the time as 3:45."
(The Times)


RE: "As for time of death you know better than Llewellyn?"
He said the body had been dead less than half an hour which puts it almost exactly at the time Lechmere was with the body.
Again you can’t do better than that!"

Except, there was no medical ability to give an accurate T.O.D. under an hour, without the use of C.S.I. teams, there still isn't.

When a "favoured" time of death is decided upon this should never be offered to the investigating authorities as a single point in time. It must be used to construct a "bracket of probability", giving an earliest and latest time between which the doctor feels that death must have occurred.
... It is futile mentioning any time in units of less than an hour, even when the death was quite recent. A medical witness who attempts to determine the time of death from temperature estimation in minutes or fractions of hours is exposing himself to a severe challenge to his expertise which may well amount to near ridicule ..."
Polson, Gee and Knight, The Essentials of Forensic Medicine, (1985), Pergamon Press.


Re: Mizen conversation

Poor witness Paul may be, but witness he was. He accused Mizen of being derelict in his duty. Couple that with the claim Mizen initially denied seeing them,

"These officers (Mizen) had seen no man leaving the spot to attract attention,"

and Mizen, justly or unjustly is definitely a suspect witness.


RE: "The Old Montague Street route is most definitely the shortest "

I'm sure your right, but on the map, the Hanbury/Spital/Primrose etc. is so
damn close I can't tell.
The Hanbury/Primrose route does not take him down Dorset Street and I stand by my original contention that it was quick AND safe.

[Fisherman]

Hutchinson and Fleming lived opposite the entrance to Old Montage Street, less than ten feet away. Old Montague Street merged onto Wentworth Street, so they lived on it, pretty much. If they popped over the road for a pint at the Princess Alice, they were on Old Montague Street.

Can´t resist this one though, Ben: If Hutchinson and Fleming wanted to have a drink, then surely they would avoid having it in Old Montague Street, where the risk of getting whacked/robbed/sneered at was so overwhelming...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I'm coming back for your post, Fisherman. Be scared.

I remember when the British newspapers used that headline with a picture of Wayne Rooney, preceding a football game that us Swedes won; "Be scared. Be very, very scared" or something like that.
Funny how such things regularly fall flat to the ground when they are put to the test, don´t you think?

I´will accomodate you to some degree, though, by seemingly fleeing for a number of days - I´m off for a mini-vacation with some friends. Midsummer is a big deal over here.

But when I come back, I am going to want my answer to the question about what mechanism it is that steps in and hinders killers from killing en route to work.

Lechmere did his work trek in the dead hours of the night, when the streets were much deserted but for the odd night-rambler or prostitute - it would have been the best time available for a street killer.

His work trek would every morning take him past these prostitutes, always gnawing away on him. The inspiration was always there during these treks.

He would quite possibly be able to add some little time to the time needed just to reach Pickfords, and thus enable him to kill and eviscerate, which was a swift enough affair in his case.

We don´t know what awaited him up at Broad Street - he could have been first to arrive, he could have his own premises etcetera - he was a faithful and quite possibly trusted employee, and so he could have had the perfect premises to stash trophies and clean up.

It is not until we can point to something that would have himdered him from killing en route to work that it becomes useful criticism. Saying that nobody else has done it before and that it would be a criminological sensation is to divert the focus from where it should lie.

Lechmere´s working trek provided him with a prime opportunity to approach prostitutes and folllow/lead them to secluded areas. All the while he did so, he would have an alibi for being out in the streets. It would have offered a very good setting.

The suggestion that it would be criminologically unviable to kill under these circumstances is therefore totally lacking in insight.

Right, Ben, now I´ll go and shudder in fear for what´s to come!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Roy and David, you crack me up as always, and giggles are much needed on threads such as these, which are often very un-chilled out.

“We have a lot more reason to suppose that Charles Lechmere will have walked down Old Montague Street than any other suspect. Given that it was his shortest route to work.
By comparison we have absolutely nothing to go on for Druitt, Tumblety, Kosminsky, Le Grand, Hutchinson, Fleming, Barnett, Bury.... and so on.”

You can’t be remotely serious with that one, Lechmere.

Hutchinson and Fleming lived opposite the entrance to Old Montage Street, less than ten feet away. Old Montague Street merged onto Wentworth Street, so they lived on it, pretty much. If they popped over the road for a pint at the Princess Alice, they were on Old Montague Street.

Hutchinson and Fleming were infinitely more likely to be on Old Montague Street than Cross.

Old Montague Street was not "the" shortest route to work for Cross on Doveton Drive. There in no evidence that it was any shorter than Hanbury Street, Wilkes Street and so on.

I’m perplexed by this stuff about Cross having a “reason” to be out and about in the small hours, and even more so by your claim that none of the other suspects did. That is a circular argument. If any one of those other suspects was the killer, he had a very good "reason" to be on the streets at that time – he was looking for a prostitute to kill. I think you’ll find that very few other serial prostitute killers were on the streets late at night for any other reason than that fairly obvious one.

“particularly one who would not be able to get admission to his lodgings in the small hours of the morning.”

Ah, so any suspect who tried to get into their lodgings in the small hours but couldn’t do so for that very reason must also have had a “ready reason to be out on the streets”? I guess you must like Hutchinson as a suspect then, seeing as you insist he meets this criterion of yours: “I would rather work on a suspect who had cause to be out and about than one who didn't”...?

Interesting.

All the best,
Ben

P.S. I'm coming back for your post, Fisherman. Be scared.

[DVV]

DVV: Hi Fish,

I comment every thread I wish. And won't hijack a quintessential Cross-thread with Hutch-the-Ripper.

Apparently, you also misrepresent and falsely claim things on behalf of other posters on any thread you wish, without retracting it or apologizing afterwards. Shame on you, David.

I have nothing further to add.

Fisherman

Oh yes, Fish.

Shame on me.

How can I survive post 114 ?

Aiuto !

[bolo]

Hello Fisherman,

But wouldn´t the world be a dreary place if we all used the quote feature...?

no, it would be a more readable, less cluttered place...

Best wishes,

Boris

[Fisherman]

Good afternoon Fisherman,



Fish, I'll buy you a taxi

and get you a taxi dance (click)

if you would just learn to use the Quote feature. You mixed up your quotes and your not quotes in that big post. You bipped when you should have bopped.

Roy

Yeah, I know. But wouldn´t the world be a dreary place if we all used the quote feature...?

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

DVV: Hi Fish,

I comment every thread I wish. And won't hijack a quintessential Cross-thread with Hutch-the-Ripper.

Apparently, you also misrepresent and falsely claim things on behalf of other posters on any thread you wish, without retracting it or apologizing afterwards. Shame on you, David.

I have nothing further to add.

Fisherman

[DVV]

Fish, I'll buy you a taxi
Roy

Then it must be a Volvo, with an Ikea kitchen at the rear.

Cheers Roy, hope you're fine

[Roy Corduroy]

Good afternoon Fisherman,

But he WAS an equivalent of a taxi driver.

Fish, I'll buy you a taxi

and get you a taxi dance (click)

if you would just learn to use the Quote feature. You mixed up your quotes and your not quotes in that big post. You bipped when you should have bopped.

Roy

[DVV]

I can only see one man running here, David. Please go back to the "Why did Abberline believe Hutch?"-thread, and answer the question I put to you there. As it stands, you have accused posters of doing things that have not been done and then you have avoided to apologize for it.

You are on the run, in other words.

The best,
Fisherman

Hi Fish,

I comment every thread I wish. And won't hijack a quintessential Cross-thread with Hutch-the-Ripper.

Now would you please use your well-known common-sense and agree that Cross had just to walk away if he were Nichols' murderer ?

Cheers