So would he have run?

[Lechmere]

AS ever Ben is way put of his depth when dealing with facts.
Old Montague Street is the shortest route.
There is zero evidence that Old Montague Street was considered to be more dangerous than Hanbury Street.
As Mr Barnett has pointed out the police notes are based on records taken ten years later - by which time the northern side of Old Montague Street opposite George Yard had been levelled and redeveloped.

In actual fact the 1889 map did show a small section of the northern side of Old Montague Street as black - as there were some lodging houses in that area.

For dangerous streets you are better off looking at crime statistics or perhaps at the records of the Board of Works who dealt with public nuisance.

[Fisherman]

Ben:

Old Montague Street was shaded black in Booth's poverty map to indicate a "vicious and semi-criminal" locale.

Oh - you are on about Booth again! Well, I noticed that you actually said that the street was considered to be dangerous, and since the English football team is by some considered to be the worlds greatest, I guess we have a parallel here.

Not that Booth ever mentioned Old Montague Street specifically as being dangerous, and not that he would have concluded that all black-marked houses were dangerous - but I will not deprive you of what miniscule support you have for a cause that is already lost.

You and your "facts", Ben ...!

Old Bailey records are great for when the offender(s) in question is (are) caught, but not so clever for robbings and gang beatings that aren't solved.

Present ONE such case to me from Old Montague Street in the space between 1897-1890. Please?

Conjecturing is great for when you have no proof, but not so clever for making a useful case.

1509 yards for Old Montague Street, apparently - the same as the Hanbury Street route prior to the discovery of the Skinner Street/Sun Street Passage cut-through. The latter must now be considered a lot shorter.

...and you use the Eldon Street entrance? Yes?
I think I´ll opt for considering YOU a lot shorter - of viable arguments!!!! (Yep, that´s FOUR exclamation marks)

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Chill out on those exclamation marks, Fisherman!!!

That means that you can prove that Old Montague Street was cosidered to have been more dangerous than Hanbury Street.
You cal aslo prove that it was not the shorter route.

Yes, it does.

Though I cannot take credit, as this must go to Charles Booth's analysis and Frank's research respectively.

Old Montague Street was shaded black in Booth's poverty map to indicate a "vicious and semi-criminal" locale, and despite some very unconvincing pooh-poohing of his in-depth findings, that is the best evidence we're likely to encounter in terms of a "dodginess" comparison between that pooey thoroughfare and Hanbury Street. Old Bailey records are great for when the offender(s) in question is (are) caught, but not so clever for robbings and gang beatings that aren't solved.

What exact distances were the routes involved?

1509 yards for Old Montague Street, apparently - the same as the Hanbury Street route prior to the discovery of the Skinner Street/Sun Street Passage cut-through. The latter must now be considered a lot shorter.

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Old Montague Street was considered to have been more dangerous than Hanbury Street, and it was not the shortest route Cross could have taken to work. These are facts.
Ben

Oh joy! Facts! That means that you can prove that Old Montague Street was cosidered to have been more dangerous than Hanbury Street.
You cal aslo prove that it was not the shorter route.

So let´s have this settled then: Show us the proof! Who was it that considered Old Montague Street more dangerous than Hanbury Street? Please look at the Old Bailey records before you answer, so you can form an opinion about WHAT kinds of dangers Old Montague Street represented.
What exact distances were the routes involved? You have the numbers, and they cannot be contested - that´s what it takes to be a fact - IN MY BOOK!!!

Fisherman

[Ben]

Old Montague Street was considered to have been more dangerous than Hanbury Street, and it was not the shortest route Cross could have taken to work. These are facts, and yet they continue to be disputed by those alleging links – actually non-existent ones – between Cross and the Eddowes and Tabram crime scenes. The shortest route took him, after Hanbury Street, across Bishopsgate and down Skinner Street, crossing through Liverpool Street Station itself. He would then have taken a left along Sun Street Passage (still there), and reached the goods depot at the western corner of Elden Street and Finsbury Avenue.

The eastern end of Old Montague Street was shaded black on Booth’s poverty map to indicate a “vicious and semi-criminal” area – something we don’t see in Hanbury Street, Crossmere’s known work route. I think we can credit Charles Booth’s investigations with a little more reliability than a biased modern commentator’s protestations against them.

“However, shopkeepers are wont to live above their shops, and I'd say a fair few of them living on Commercial Street were wealthy enough to own astrakhan coats, gold chains, and horseshoe tie pins. What do you think?”

Probably not.

Even if they could, they would have been streetwise enough not to parade them around that particular district, at the height of the ripper “scare”, at 2.00am in the morning. You’ll note that the red shaded areas encompassed the Britannia pub, and I strongly suspect that Mr. Ringer – that well-known wearer of Astrakhan coats and frequenter of gentleman’s clubs – had gumption enough to leave his horsehoe tie pin at home when sauntering the deserted small-hours streets.

Regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

You´re welcome!

It could be added that for example Dorset Street (since it was mentioned earlier) managed to add to it´s reputation by providing robbery, manslaughter, theft and larceny within the first period, from 1887-1890.

Now, THERE' S a dangerous street for you! Maybe Lechmere would never have killed Kelly....?

... and maybe poverty does not equal criminality.

Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Fish.

MrB

[Fisherman]

So far I have been working on the digitised version of the revised 1898/9 poverty map on the LSE website.

But the website also provides a link to a version of the first, 1889, edition of the map, digitised by the University of Michigan. This shows no black in Old Montague Street, the vast majority of it is a sort of grey colour used to denote 'mixed'.

Perhaps fish could extend his (scientific enough for me) Old Bailey research forward a decade to see whether the area had deteriorated significantly.

MrB

Well, I was actually a lot more interested in the time when Lechmere was supposed to shudder in fear of the ludicruous idea of ever entering the fiercely dangerous Old Montague Street.

But, oh okay then - just because it´s you asking, Mr Barnett!

Hanbury Street figures three times between January 1898 and December 1899. One of the crimes actually is a robbery, even. Dangerous street, that one!!!

Old Montague Street is not mentioned during these two years.

... and there were a total of 166 robberies - one of them in Hanbury Street, as stated.

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Interesting

So far I have been working on the digitised version of the revised 1898/9 poverty map on the LSE website.

But the website also provides a link to a version of the first, 1889, edition of the map, digitised by the University of Michigan. This shows no black in Old Montague Street, the vast majority of it is a sort of grey colour used to denote 'mixed'.

Perhaps fish could extend his (scientific enough for me) Old Bailey research forward a decade to see whether the area had deteriorated significantly.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

Hi Ed,

If Dorset Street falls into an area that is mid-table, then surely these stats are useless when trying to identify individual dangerous streets.

The Booth maps classify individual buildings and are much more useful in this respect, I think. Reading the police notebooks prepared at the time of the updating of the maps, there is a real sense that it is criminality above all that determines a black classification.

MrB

[Fisherman]

Lechmere would have been quite used to walking down poor streets and seems to have chosen to walk down a ‘dangerous’ street.

One can of course always search the Old Bailey online records, to get a picture of how criminally infested Old Montague Street and Hanbury Street were, respectively
It will, in any case, give an interesting insight into the topic, a general idea, sort of.

A search for January 1887 to January 1890 produces four instances of Hanbury street being mentioned: One case of unlawfully obtaining from one Samuel Thomas Stafford 30l., and an order for the payment of 30l, one case of stealing 1,274 yards of shirting, and 1,098 yards of cretonne, one affair of unlawfully uttering counterfeit coin and finally, one case of stealing twelve cigars.

As for Old Montague Street in this period, it is mentioned twice: One case of stealing a mare, a cart and harness, a cask of ink, and two cases of stationery, and one case of unlawfully making 30 counterfeit sixpences.

So there it is – the scary and dangerous Old Montague Street.

As an aside, it can be mentioned that I made a search for the word "robbery" during the exact same period, and came up with 273 examples. None of them, however, mentioned either Old Montague Street or Hanbury Street.

All very unscientific, I´m sure!

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Hi Obs,

Do you happen to have one of the Godfrey reprints of the OS map for Whitechapel and Spitalfields? On the back they show the Post office directory entries for the principal streets of the area. I'm pretty sure Commercial Street would be covered. Sadly my copy seems to have gone walkabout.

That in conjunction with the Goad map (available online) for the street numbers and the Booth map should provide the info you are after.

That's the rather cumbersome way I would go about it, but there
are probably any number of real researchers on here who can suggested a better solution .

Cheers ,

MrB

[Lechmere]

This Booth discussion was provoked by his classification of about 100 yards on the northern side of Old Montague Street as black. This particular classification was almost certainly because that area had a high concentration of Lodging Houses.
It is conjecture to suggest that this area was so classified due to the presence of a high number of criminals and it isn’t a classification that shows it was a ‘dangerous street’
We are told that Bucks Row was regarded as a dangerous street yet Lechmere – and the windy Paul – happily walked down there
We know that a soldier was loitering directly opposite this black zone for an unspecified time on the night Tabram was killed.

As I never tire of pointing out, besides the colour coded map, Booth also produced a map called ‘Map Shewing Degrees of London Poverty’ with data collected between 1889-1890, in which he divided London up into 134 districts, each of roughly 30,000 inhabitants and gave each district a shading – the darker the shade of grey, the more poverty struck it was, expressed as a percentage.
Poverty being defined by those inhabitants that where within his bottom four classifications – people who earned less than 21 shillings a week.

Lechmere lived just inside district 57 (44.2% in poverty). This was a largely residential area, without lodging houses so it was just relatively poor overall.

Both Hanbury Street and Old Montague Street were in District 72 (49.1% in poverty). This included a lot of lodging houses in the Brick Lane and Flower and Dean Street areas which undoubtedly skewed the poverty figure which otherwise would have been much lower. With all these lodging houses it was the eleventh worst district in London in terms of poverty.

When he crossed Commercial Street, via either route he entered District 71 (32.5% in poverty). This included the Victoria Home and Dorset Street which must also have skewed the figure downwards. This was only the 58th worst district in London in terms of poverty (out of 134) – so without the Lodging Houses it would have been relatively prosperous.

Lechmere had previously lived in District 73 (46.5% in poverty) – again an area with few lodging houses, so there must have been a high general degree of poverty among the house holders. It was the 16th worst district in London.

In short Lechmere would have been quite used to walking down poor streets and seems to have chosen to walk down a ‘dangerous’ street.

[Observer]

Hello Observer,
perhaps this refers to people like McCarthy who may have lived in the middle of the muddle but weren't exactly poor and had a steady job/income as landlords.

Best wishes,

Boris

Hi Bolo

That's possible. Looking again at the red areas which are in close proximity to Dorset Street it appears they are all on Commercial Street. Booth also describes the red shaded areas of his map thus

Lower middle class. Shopkeepers and small employers, clerks and subordinate professional men. A hardworking sober, energetic class

Taking the above into consideration, I'd say the majority of the red shaded areas on Commercial Street were shopkeepers.

However, shopkeepers are wont to live above their shops, and I'd say a fair few of them living on Commercial Street were wealthy enough to own astrakhan coats, gold chains, and horseshoe tie pins. What do you think?

Furthermore, picture the scene, the night before the Lord Mayor's show, no work the next day, shop shut up, Mr Somethinginski has had one too many, and is returning home from one of the many men's clubs in the area, he is approached by a not unattractive lady of the night of roughly five and twenty years, and you know the old sayings Bolo about the heart ruling the head, the standing member has no conscience.



Regards

Observer

[Observer]

Hi Obs,

A cursory look at the 1890 Goad map for the short stretch of Commercial Street between Dorset Street and White's Row shows two factories and a warehouse shaded red.

MrB.

Hi Mr B

Right, the electoral role is the way forward then. Some of the red shaded buildings are bound to be dwelling houses I'd imagine.

Regards

Observer