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  • #16
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    What exactly does "broad-shouldered" mean? Is there one set definition that everybody who used it is in agreement on or does the term vary widely depending on someone's interpretation of it?

    c.d.
    Notably above "average"?

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    • #17
      One more thing about My Favourite Candidate: he kept his mouth shut. Said nothing. He may have just not felt like talking. Or he may have had some kind of a distinctive accent. He could have been Scots or Irish with that colouring. Or he could have been German Austrian or Scandi.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
        ... these murders took place in autumn/winter...
        I think he means summer/autumn.

        M.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Mark J D View Post

          I think he means summer/autumn.

          M.
          Just checked online and Nichols was killed on the last day of summer. Ive always considered November as winter but Dec 1st is the actual first day. Either way the original point remains that someone out and about in the early hours would more than likely have been well wrapped up.
          Regards

          Herlock Sholmes

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Chava View Post
            Seriously guys. He's seen with 2 victims & one almost-victim. The only reason people don't like him for Kelly is that she was alive & singing for an hour or so after he went in with her. But like I've said before, we know nothing about the killer's MO. He could have jumped them out of nowhere or within the first few minutes. Or he could have spent significant time with them before he killed them. Or both...

            Here is Ada Wilson’s description of her attacker:
            Height 5’6. Sunburnt face. Fair moustache. Dark coat, wideawake hat.

            Here is Lawende’s description of the man seen with Catherine Eddowes before her death:
            Height 5’ 7-9. Fair complexion. Small fair moustache. Red necktie. Rough/shabby. Wearing a loose pepper and salt jacket and grey cloth cap. Slightly later versions have the moustache as ‘full’.

            Here is Mary Cox’s description of the man seen going into her room at Millers Court with her:
            Short, stout shabby man with a blotchy face and full carroty moustache. Billycock hat.
            If you're looking at Ada Wilson's attacker as JtR the only logical suspect (IMO) is Bury, based on known behaviour, geography and description. He was described as having a fair moustache and his facial hair being light sandy-coloured. The descriptions of a reddened face due to drinking fit with Bury the alcoholic. Also, he could well have carried a pail of beer. He was short and described as having a 'powerful chest' (broad shouldered?). He carried a penknife. A sketch of him in the dock appears to show him holding a hard felt or billycock hat. One of newspaper articles about Farmer also said her attacker had a fair moustache and a 'reddened face', as well as similar description to those above that you cite. I believe it was that failed attack and subsequent certainty of the man's arrest due to the very good description that led Bury to ditch his horse and cart and probably abandon whitechapel. Maybe as Beadle suggests, he then began making the 20/25 min walk over to Poplar in December..

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

              If you're looking at Ada Wilson's attacker as JtR the only logical suspect (IMO) is Bury, based on known behaviour, geography and description. He was described as having a fair moustache and his facial hair being light sandy-coloured. The descriptions of a reddened face due to drinking fit with Bury the alcoholic. Also, he could well have carried a pail of beer. He was short and described as having a 'powerful chest' (broad shouldered?). He carried a penknife. A sketch of him in the dock appears to show him holding a hard felt or billycock hat. One of newspaper articles about Farmer also said her attacker had a fair moustache and a 'reddened face', as well as similar description to those above that you cite. I believe it was that failed attack and subsequent certainty of the man's arrest due to the very good description that led Bury to ditch his horse and cart and probably abandon whitechapel. Maybe as Beadle suggests, he then began making the 20/25 min walk over to Poplar in December..
              “He could well have carried a pail of beer?”



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              • #22
                Originally posted by Chava View Post
                Seriously guys. He's seen with 2 victims & one almost-victim. The only reason people don't like him for Kelly is that she was alive & singing for an hour or so after he went in with her. But like I've said before, we know nothing about the killer's MO. He could have jumped them out of nowhere or within the first few minutes. Or he could have spent significant time with them before he killed them. Or both...

                Here is Ada Wilson’s description of her attacker:
                Height 5’6. Sunburnt face. Fair moustache. Dark coat, wideawake hat.

                Here is Lawende’s description of the man seen with Catherine Eddowes before her death:
                Height 5’ 7-9. Fair complexion. Small fair moustache. Red necktie. Rough/shabby. Wearing a loose pepper and salt jacket and grey cloth cap. Slightly later versions have the moustache as ‘full’.

                Here is Mary Cox’s description of the man seen going into her room at Millers Court with her:
                Short, stout shabby man with a blotchy face and full carroty moustache. Billycock hat.
                I think you show why Blotchy is the most viable for Kelly Chava. The varied descriptions for other crime scenes could be nothing, lots of similar men lurking about on those streets, and in all cases it was dark. And in most, from a distance. Cox walked past these 2, in that small courtyard just through the 20 ft tunnel. The man she saw was very probably Kellys killer. He is the only man we can say with some confidence seen entering Marys room that night. And since when the room goes quite and dark just before Elizabeth comes through that same 20 ft tunnel at around 1:30, it seems she would have seen Blotchy exit that tunnel onto Dorset had he left at the time the room goes dark. It is, as you will recall, still lit and songs still were sung around 1:10 when Mary Ann goes back out for another run at some business.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                  The problem here is, I believe that the descriptions used here could be applied to literally hundreds of men living in the area at the time. Just look at any photos from the time you see lots of Mr Blotchies!
                  Aint that the truth.

                  But people domt want to try and solve just 1....they want the whole enchilada. All or nought. Which is precisely why we are still at this...because its a failed premise and should be abolished. 5 murders of interest within what, 13? unsolved murder casefiles? Blotchy for Marys killer...Im for that, but why and why so very obviously over the top..even when compared to some of the earlier ghoulish crimes?

                  Just solving Marys murder might be the book to beat all possible Canonical based publications to-date...there MUST be some really good story behind Mr Blotchy and his madness.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Losmandris View Post
                    The problem here is, I believe that the descriptions used here could be applied to literally hundreds of men living in the area at the time. Just look at any photos from the time you see lots of Mr Blotchies!
                    Mr Blotchy could not have been the killer if George Hutchinson is to be believed.

                    Cox saw him with Mary at 11.45pm Hutchinsons time of seeing Mary with another male was around 2am.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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                    • #25
                      Nothwithstanding that no evidence was produced at the coroner's inquiry to show that she left her apartment after one o'clock, at which hour she was heard singing, there is every reason to believe that she came out after that hour. This circumstance will account for the fact that no light was observed in the room after one o'clock, as stated by one of the witnesses at the inquest. The police have received statements from several persons, some of whom reside in Miller's-court, who are prepared to swear that the deceased was out of her house and in Dorset-street between the hours of two and three o'clock on the morning in question. It has been established to the satisfaction of the police that the unfortunate woman had been murdered at three a.m. or thereabouts on Friday morning.

                      Morning Advertiser, 14 Nov. 1888.

                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        Nothwithstanding that no evidence was produced at the coroner's inquiry to show that she left her apartment after one o'clock, at which hour she was heard singing, there is every reason to believe that she came out after that hour. This circumstance will account for the fact that no light was observed in the room after one o'clock, as stated by one of the witnesses at the inquest. The police have received statements from several persons, some of whom reside in Miller's-court, who are prepared to swear that the deceased was out of her house and in Dorset-street between the hours of two and three o'clock on the morning in question. It has been established to the satisfaction of the police that the unfortunate woman had been murdered at three a.m. or thereabouts on Friday morning.

                        Morning Advertiser, 14 Nov. 1888.
                        Which residents of Millers Court claimed that I wonder Jon? Julia, Mary Ann and Elizabeth (sort of) are the only Millers Court residents that attended the Inquest and none said they saw Mary out of her room after 11:45pm Thursday night. Maria was living there with Mary until Tuesday that week, but she said nothing about that either. Sarah Lewis was not a resident of the court, but she said she saw a man and woman around half past 2 near the Britannia. And Mrs Maxwell was clearly advised at the Inquest..."You must be very careful about your evidence, because it is different to other people's."

                        It would seem once reading the Inquest transcripts that statement is not accurate. Someone from the court could surely identify Mary, but none of them said anything about her being out after going in just before midnight. Claims and facts. They often are not compatible.
                        Last edited by Michael W Richards; 01-30-2022, 10:20 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                          Mr Blotchy could not have been the killer if George Hutchinson is to be believed.

                          Cox saw him with Mary at 11.45pm Hutchinsons time of seeing Mary with another male was around 2am.

                          www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                          Thats because a man who claimed to be a friend of Marys doesnt wait 4 days and until after the formal Inquest has closed to come forward with a statement that most surely would have been very relevant to the investigation and helped investigators to find her killer. Hutchinson came forward to clear Loitering Man of any suspicions...which Wideawake was clearly under having created cause for the ONLY actions related to possible accomplices in all these crimes. Why? I have suspicions, but no proof.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                            Thats because a man who claimed to be a friend of Marys doesnt wait 4 days and until after the formal Inquest has closed to come forward with a statement that most surely would have been very relevant to the investigation and helped investigators to find her killer. Hutchinson came forward to clear Loitering Man of any suspicions...which Wideawake was clearly under having created cause for the ONLY actions related to possible accomplices in all these crimes. Why? I have suspicions, but no proof.
                            But he didn’t claim to be her friend, he claimed to have known her for about 3 years and to have occasionally given her money. Approx 3 years previously she had been operating as a prostitute in the Ratcliff Highway. Which makes it sound like he had been a customer. Or maybe an ex employer?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                              Thats because a man who claimed to be a friend of Marys doesnt wait 4 days and until after the formal Inquest has closed to come forward with a statement that most surely would have been very relevant to the investigation and helped investigators to find her killer. Hutchinson came forward to clear Loitering Man of any suspicions...which Wideawake was clearly under having created cause for the ONLY actions related to possible accomplices in all these crimes. Why? I have suspicions, but no proof.
                              If you have a copy of my book then you might want to read the chapter on The reverend samuel Barnett vicar of St Judes Whitechapel, and his "alleged" contact with Mary Kelly on the night of her murder.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                                What exactly does "broad-shouldered" mean? Is there one set definition that everybody who used it is in agreement on or does the term vary widely depending on someone's interpretation of it?

                                c.d.
                                I take it the phrase "broad-shouldered" by any witness just means notably greater than a perceived average. I think "broad-shouldered" could be conflated as "stout" but not necessarily so.

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