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  • I'm perfectly willing to admit possible error. I just asked for evidence, which I assume you don't have. I haven't read Fiona Rule's book. Is all this stuff about McCarthy in it? Did the Dorset Street McCarthy have a son named "Steve" and was Jack actually a fight promoter?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

      Of course he meant that J. McC, but Duckworth and you seem to be accusing him of everything untoward that went on in Dorset Street. Probably the most notorious ‘double’ on Dorset Street was no. 35, which was Crossingham’s. Why no mention of him? Because the murder of MJK brought McCarthy into the spotlight, made him notorious.
      Well, I'm not sure it's the case that Duckworth's belief in McCarthy's notoriety comes from his having been MJK's landlord. Their are two local figures in the notes from 17th and 18th March 1898 which he pays such attention to, Jack McCarthy and F. Geringer. F. Geringer is Frederick Geringher whose living descendents believe to have been some sort of a crime lord who controlled 4 streets including Great Pearl Street and Little Pearl Street.

      Why no mention of Crossingham's and number 35, which was a double fitting the description Duckworth gives of a covert brothel? What makes you so sure this isn't one of the properties Duckworth is referring to?
      Sure, if you look at paperwork as to who legally owned the lodging houses in Dorset Street they were not mostly owned by McCarthy (although a fair number were) but in the context of the area walks for Booth's maps, it won't have been the legal ownership which was captured. The walk would have been a survey of an area with a local expert in this case a policeman, Sergeant French of H Division. The remarks on McCarthy will have been from an impression Duckworth received as to ownership most likely from Sergeant French. Duckworth probably thought McCarthy owned most of the houses because Sergeant French said so. The question is one of control, rather than legal ownership. Dorset Street belongs to McCarthy, Great Pearl Street belongs to Geringher. These probably were not views Duckworth brought with him on the day of the visit, this was the view of a Sergeant of H Division in 1898.
      Duckworth saw 35 Dorset Street and thought it was a house under the control of McCarthy.

      Further evidence in the text of the notes that these views are not entirely Duckworth's own comes next to the notes on Little Pearl Street where Duckworth added a note:

      Lewis says that respectable jews are in on the west side & s corners of Little Pearl St but the rest is black.
      Duckworth had already noted the presence of Geringher on Little Pearl Street. Geringher's relative wealth is famous, he is reputed to have had servants carry him around on a sedan chair, so the blackness of the rest of Little Pearl Street is not necessarily one of poverty, it is as reported by to Duckworth by Lewis (I'm not sure who this Lewis is) and for the main notes on the day, by Sergeant French.

      The view that Dorset Street belonged to McCarthy and that the houses on Dorset Street may have Sergeant French's and Duckworth simply noted that opinion. A H Division Sergeant in 1898 would tell a visitor to the area that Jack McCarthy, the owner of general shop on Dorset Street, ran the brothels there. It may not be conclusive, but it's also not nothing.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
        Did the Dorset Street McCarthy have a son named "Steve"?
        I'll leave the other questions for others to answer, but Jack McCarthy's oldest son was born John McCarthy, but later became known as Steve or Stephen. He's notable because he was the comedian, singer and songwriter Stephen McCarthy who married music hall star Marie Kendall.

        Comment


        • Any relation?

          Times (London)
          Saturday, 17 November 1888

          POLICE.
          John M'Carthy, 28, was charged with being concerned in assaulting and robbing Michael Hadsburgh, of 3, Well-street, Whitechapel

          Comment


          • I've seen this case before on Old Bailey Online although a different spelling of the victims name, Michael Hertzberg: https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/brow...v=t18881119-50

            I haven't found any connection between this John McCarthy and the notorious John McCarthy.

            Comment


            • Does anyone else believe the "notorious" John McCarthy was the John McCarthy, Esq. who attended Abberline's retirement at the Three Nuns Hotel?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                Does anyone else believe the "notorious" John McCarthy was the John McCarthy, Esq. who attended Abberline's retirement at the Three Nuns Hotel?
                If it is, then there’s a direct connection between a senior policeman with the landlord of one of the rippers victims.

                This then opens up a whole Pandora’s box of potential connotations which bring alive conspiracy theories galore.

                TRD



                Comment


                • Originally posted by seanr View Post

                  I'll leave the other questions for others to answer, but Jack McCarthy's oldest son was born John McCarthy, but later became known as Steve or Stephen. He's notable because he was the comedian, singer and songwriter Stephen McCarthy who married music hall star Marie Kendall.
                  That’s right, Sean. He was being billed as a comedian in the early 1890s.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seanr View Post

                    Well, I'm not sure it's the case that Duckworth's belief in McCarthy's notoriety comes from his having been MJK's landlord. Their are two local figures in the notes from 17th and 18th March 1898 which he pays such attention to, Jack McCarthy and F. Geringer. F. Geringer is Frederick Geringher whose living descendents believe to have been some sort of a crime lord who controlled 4 streets including Great Pearl Street and Little Pearl Street.

                    Why no mention of Crossingham's and number 35, which was a double fitting the description Duckworth gives of a covert brothel? What makes you so sure this isn't one of the properties Duckworth is referring to?
                    Sure, if you look at paperwork as to who legally owned the lodging houses in Dorset Street they were not mostly owned by McCarthy (although a fair number were) but in the context of the area walks for Booth's maps, it won't have been the legal ownership which was captured. The walk would have been a survey of an area with a local expert in this case a policeman, Sergeant French of H Division. The remarks on McCarthy will have been from an impression Duckworth received as to ownership most likely from Sergeant French. Duckworth probably thought McCarthy owned most of the houses because Sergeant French said so. The question is one of control, rather than legal ownership. Dorset Street belongs to McCarthy, Great Pearl Street belongs to Geringher. These probably were not views Duckworth brought with him on the day of the visit, this was the view of a Sergeant of H Division in 1898.
                    Duckworth saw 35 Dorset Street and thought it was a house under the control of McCarthy.

                    Further evidence in the text of the notes that these views are not entirely Duckworth's own comes next to the notes on Little Pearl Street where Duckworth added a note:



                    Duckworth had already noted the presence of Geringher on Little Pearl Street. Geringher's relative wealth is famous, he is reputed to have had servants carry him around on a sedan chair, so the blackness of the rest of Little Pearl Street is not necessarily one of poverty, it is as reported by to Duckworth by Lewis (I'm not sure who this Lewis is) and for the main notes on the day, by Sergeant French.

                    The view that Dorset Street belonged to McCarthy and that the houses on Dorset Street may have Sergeant French's and Duckworth simply noted that opinion. A H Division Sergeant in 1898 would tell a visitor to the area that Jack McCarthy, the owner of general shop on Dorset Street, ran the brothels there. It may not be conclusive, but it's also not nothing.
                    Sean,

                    I asked why no mention of Crossingham, not ‘Crossingham’s’. We have to question the local knowledge of a cop who thought McCarthy ran 35, Dorset Street. Another force to be reckoned with in Dorset Street was Annie McCarthy, Jacks sister-in-law and Bill Crossingham’s daughter. She ran the shop at 36, Dorset Street and dosshouses in Thrawl Street. Her minder, Billy Maher, was probably the toughest man in the street. After the Austin murder in 1901, he was pointed out by a PC as having got off two murder charges, when in fact it was only one.

                    How did Geringer’s wealth compare to that of the seriously rich Oylers?

                    Where did you get the Geringer sedan chair story from?

                    Gary



                    Comment


                    • I've definitely come across that sedan chair story, but I can't recall where? I remember thinking it was fanciful rubbish.
                      Thems the Vagaries.....

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post
                        I've definitely come across that sedan chair story, but I can't recall where? I remember thinking it was fanciful rubbish.
                        I know it’s referred to by Fiona Rule in her ‘Worst Street in London’, but I was wondering whether Sean had traced it back any further.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                          I know it’s referred to by Fiona Rule in her ‘Worst Street in London’, but I was wondering whether Sean had traced it back any further.
                          Yep, that's where I've read it.
                          Thems the Vagaries.....

                          Comment


                          • It seems there existed three McCarthys -- the Landlord of Miller's Court, a boxing promotor/entertainer and a distinguished gentlemen (Esq)/fundraiser who attended luminary celebrations. Or were they one and the same? Or two the same?

                            Comment


                            • Scott,

                              Jack and Steve McCarthy organised boxing ‘exhibitions’ and sold tickets from 27, Dorset Street.

                              Steve’s wife Marie Kendal gave out food vouchers that could be redeemed at Jack’s shop in Dorset Street.

                              Crossingham, Cooney and Tempany contributed to retirement funds for senior police officers.

                              Remind me, what have your Lambeth PS and his son got going for them?

                              Gary



                              Comment


                              • Having check Fiona Rules book, she clearly puts the Gehringer Sedan chair as "rumour has it".
                                Thems the Vagaries.....

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