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  • #16
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post

    The double event happened long before Barnett left MJK, by about 5 weeks.

    Rumours have persisted through the years that McCarthy allowed MJK to build up the rent arrears as he was getting some 'freebies' and was giving her more leniency than he would have given many others. I think it was also around 5 weeks rent she owed by that stage. Highly unusual someone would be allowed to build up such a debt over a relatively long period. Was 'Indian Harry' (Bowyer) due to call anyway the next morning or was he prompted to go and collect the outstanding rent off the cuff?
    Two opposite thoughts on this.

    Firstly - as you say, it would be very unusual for a landlord to allow someone to build up such a large debt. Which is why I have wondered if McCarthy was in fact fibbing about it.

    Perhaps, just perhaps, with his tenant (very) dead, and owing a small amount of money, he took the opportunity to boost the figure on the offchance that Mary Jane had a relative or someone who would pay her debts after her death. It is a real long chance, but he is probably going to lose the small amount of rent she owed, so why not claim it was more and hope? Nothing at all to lose by doing so except of course...

    Having said that, it also occurs to me that a potential significant disadvantage to this would be that publically announcing that he had let a tenant build up such a large debt would surely be a precedent he would not want to set.

    "Oh, Mr McCarthy, please give me longer to pay you, I know what a kind generous man you are, like you were for poor, dear, dead Mary Jane Kelly, God rest her soul"

    I kind of get the impression that he was quite a hard-nosed business man. So revealing he had let Mary Jane get away with owing him so much seems like a bad business move.

    So if she really did owe him so much, why would he not lie to maintain his reputation.

    I have spent far too long thinking about this, hehe.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Azarna View Post

      Firstly - as you say, it would be very unusual for a landlord to allow someone to build up such a large debt. Which is why I have wondered if McCarthy was in fact fibbing about it.
      McCarthy: Deceased was in arrears 29s. I was to be paid the rent weekly. Arrears are got as best you can.

      Does that imply Boyer would have made previous rent collecting visits to her room?
      How many warnings does she get?

      By the Jury: When did you see her last alive?
      Boyer: On Wednesday afternoon, in the court, when I spoke to her.


      Boyer seems to know Kelly quite well.

      Boyer: I did not know the deceased by the name of Kelly.

      So what name did he know her by?
      If only 'Mary', why would McCarthy have never mentioned her last name to Boyer?

      McCarthy (fictional): Thomas, be a good lad and pop around to room 13 for me. Mary is 29s behind in her rent. Can you find out if she made any of it last night?

      He would not speak that informally. I cannot imagine Boyer referring to Mary, other than as 'Miss Kelly'.
      So why didn't Boyer know Mary's last name? Was it a secret?

      McCarthy (continuing): I frequently saw the deceased the worse for drink. When sober she was an exceptionally quiet woman, but when in drink she had more to say.

      Is JM implying that Mary was squandering her rent money on drink?
      If yes, then how does he ever expect her to pay off the arrears?
      If no, then why does he mention this when he does?

      Having said that, it also occurs to me that a potential significant disadvantage to this would be that publically announcing that he had let a tenant build up such a large debt would surely be a precedent he would not want to set.

      "Oh, Mr McCarthy, please give me longer to pay you, I know what a kind generous man you are, like you were for poor, dear, dead Mary Jane Kelly, God rest her soul"

      I kind of get the impression that he was quite a hard-nosed business man. So revealing he had let Mary Jane get away with owing him so much seems like a bad business move.

      So if she really did owe him so much, why would he not lie to maintain his reputation.
      Nice one!
      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post



        May i ask how you came to the conclusion that Ellen McCarthy's maiden name was McCarthy?



        TRD


        It wasn’t a conclusion so much as a stab in the dark.

        Can you elaborate on the family connection you have found between Lechmere’s neighbour and John McCarthy of Dorset Street?

        It would be a shame if your interesting discovery was diverted down the well-worn rut of MJK’s arrears. Been there, done that.

        Comment


        • #19
          MrBarnett


          I am glad you said it was a stab in the dark, because if that was true then my theory would have been ruined



          The Ellen McCarthy who boarded with Charles Lechmere was a widow.



          TRD

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
            MrBarnett


            I am glad you said it was a stab in the dark, because if that was true then my theory would have been ruined



            The Ellen McCarthy who boarded with Charles Lechmere was a widow.



            TRD
            Yes, I saw that. I was trying to find her maiden name by looking for GRO birth records for her children, James and Ellen.

            Comment


            • #21
              To me, McCarthy allowing Kelly to be behind in her rent is a non-starter and most likely has a very reasonable explanation. The pool of people that would have been renting from McCarthy were poor and I would not be surprised if a good percentage of them worked irregularly. Probably spent a lot of money on drink as well. It is quite likely that McCarthy knew that Kelly was good for the money at some point and that she had a habit of paying up even if late. Contrast this with evicting her and renting from the same pool of people and possibly getting someone who got behind and skipped on their rent. Simply a case of better the devil you know.

              I also would not be surprised if Kelly at times did "favors" for McCarthy.

              This doesn't have to be sinister or complicated.

              c.d.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                To me, McCarthy allowing Kelly to be behind in her rent is a non-starter and most likely has a very reasonable explanation. The pool of people that would have been renting from McCarthy were poor and I would not be surprised if a good percentage of them worked irregularly. Probably spent a lot of money on drink as well. It is quite likely that McCarthy knew that Kelly was good for the money at some point and that she had a habit of paying up even if late. Contrast this with evicting her and renting from the same pool of people and possibly getting someone who got behind and skipped on their rent. Simply a case of better the devil you know.

                I also would not be surprised if Kelly at times did "favors" for McCarthy.

                This doesn't have to be sinister or complicated.

                c.d.
                It was a man’s world. The debt was surely Joe Barnett’s primarily.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Kinky
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                    Yes, I saw that. I was trying to find her maiden name by looking for GRO birth records for her children, James and Ellen.
                    I believe i may have found something rather interesting regarding Ellen McCarthy



                    TRD

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                      It was a man’s world. The debt was surely Joe Barnett’s primarily.
                      Barnett: I am a porter on Billingsgate Market, but have been out of employment for the past 3 or 4 months.

                      Why is the rent arrears period only about half of Barnett's period of unemployment?
                      Joe & Mary must have gone from being reliable tenants, to only paying some of the rent - getting further and further behind for the 3 or 4 months Joe has been out of work. So the rent arrears is not a contiguous period of zero payments, which would explain the odd amount owing - they are paying in dribs and drabs.
                      Even by Nov 9, Boyer is sent for the rent - not to evict - so either McCarthy is an understanding fellow, to the point of being charitable, or the rent arrears details he gives Baxter, are false.
                      If McCarthy were telling the truth though, it would seem clear that it is Mary's work that is paying the partial rent.
                      In that case, why would Joe object to other women staying in the room - presumably they can help to make up the shortfall?
                      How can Joe expect to make rent elsewhere, on his own? If he can, surely he and Mary can make rent, together.
                      There is a rather obvious explanation...

                      Barnett didn't leave Kelly because he objected to the prostitute staying in the room - he was actually kicked out by Kelly because he couldn't contribute financially.

                      Maria Harvey left the room quickly, when Joe came around for a 'chat', that evening.

                      As you say it was 'a mans world'. So I don't understand this...

                      I let the room about ten months ago to the deceased and a man named Joe, who I believed to be her husband.

                      I knew deceased as Mary Jane Kelly.

                      Does that mean McCarthy knew the 'husband' as Joe Kelly?
                      How can he know Mary Jane's surname, but not Joe's?
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                        Barnett: I am a porter on Billingsgate Market, but have been out of employment for the past 3 or 4 months.

                        Why is the rent arrears period only about half of Barnett's period of unemployment?
                        Joe & Mary must have gone from being reliable tenants, to only paying some of the rent - getting further and further behind for the 3 or 4 months Joe has been out of work. So the rent arrears is not a contiguous period of zero payments, which would explain the odd amount owing - they are paying in dribs and drabs.
                        Even by Nov 9, Boyer is sent for the rent - not to evict - so either McCarthy is an understanding fellow, to the point of being charitable, or the rent arrears details he gives Baxter, are false.
                        If McCarthy were telling the truth though, it would seem clear that it is Mary's work that is paying the partial rent.
                        In that case, why would Joe object to other women staying in the room - presumably they can help to make up the shortfall?
                        How can Joe expect to make rent elsewhere, on his own? If he can, surely he and Mary can make rent, together.
                        There is a rather obvious explanation...

                        Barnett didn't leave Kelly because he objected to the prostitute staying in the room - he was actually kicked out by Kelly because he couldn't contribute financially.

                        Maria Harvey left the room quickly, when Joe came around for a 'chat', that evening.

                        As you say it was 'a mans world'. So I don't understand this...

                        I let the room about ten months ago to the deceased and a man named Joe, who I believed to be her husband.

                        I knew deceased as Mary Jane Kelly.

                        Does that mean McCarthy knew the 'husband' as Joe Kelly?
                        How can he know Mary Jane's surname, but not Joe's?
                        People don't like it on here when you take a thread sideways like this one - which now becomes about Kelly's rent arrears.

                        I don't care much for protocol and never have.

                        Your points above are logical and rational. MJK might have had some fondness for Joe but after he lost his job his use to her was no more. I don't think she was malicious or calculating, just a young woman who had spent most of her life just surviving. To her him leaving would be pragmatic as she could then focus on looking after herself for a while, until an alternative means of support could be found. I think she knew all too well Joe would not tolerate her allowing other unfortunates to share the room and as such he left. Maybe because the room was originally let to Joe and not her she employed this tactic, but McCarthy certainly had a strong awareness of MJK and was familiar with her. He knew all too well she was there on her own.

                        I think it is a combination of the rent being paid in bits and pieces but not in full, combined with McCarthy trying his luck to say the rent owed was 30 shillings in the hope a family member would settle up.
                        "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                        - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                          People don't like it on here when you take a thread sideways like this one - which now becomes about Kelly's rent arrears.
                          I accept what you're saying, but as ever, everything is intertwined.
                          You say my points are logical and rational - thanks, but I detect a possibly major flaw, and it's regarding something you mention...

                          In this man's world, how is Mary in a position to kick out Joe, rather than it being the other way around?
                          My simple answer is; the name of this thread.
                          It is John McCarthy who quite possibly gives Joe Barnett the nudge, knowing that it's Mary alone bringing in the money, and her friends - be they laundresses or prostitutes, or both.
                          JM probably doesn't care too much, as long as the rent is paid.
                          I detect a slightly guilty conscience with JM, at the inquest - he over-answers the questions, as though he is trying to justify his actions to some extent.

                          Your points above are logical and rational. MJK might have had some fondness for Joe but after he lost his job his use to her was no more. I don't think she was malicious or calculating, just a young woman who had spent most of her life just surviving. To her him leaving would be pragmatic as she could then focus on looking after herself for a while, until an alternative means of support could be found. I think she knew all too well Joe would not tolerate her allowing other unfortunates to share the room and as such he left. Maybe because the room was originally let to Joe and not her she employed this tactic, but McCarthy certainly had a strong awareness of MJK and was familiar with her. He knew all too well she was there on her own.
                          We only get to hear Joe' side of the story, regarding the reasons for the breakup. Aren't there always two, though?
                          MJK probably had a fairly good relationship with both McCarthy and Boyer - maybe her looks were to her advantage.
                          Whatever the case I don't blame her if she's kicked Barnett out - tough times demand hard decisions.

                          I think it is a combination of the rent being paid in bits and pieces but not in full, combined with McCarthy trying his luck to say the rent owed was 30 shillings in the hope a family member would settle up.
                          Is that why they didn't turn up to the funeral?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I’ve no idea whether TRD has found anything of significance here, but if he/she has, it’ll most likely get lost in a flood of off-topic posts about the same old same old.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                              I’ve no idea whether TRD has found anything of significance here, but if he/she has, it’ll most likely get lost in a flood of off-topic posts about the same old same old.
                              Mr Barnett killed Miss Kelly
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
                                I’ve no idea whether TRD has found anything of significance here, but if he/she has, it’ll most likely get lost in a flood of off-topic posts about the same old same old.
                                It's a shame that all the characters have such generic names. Add in misspellings, entry errors and use of other names, and it's no wonder they all get mixed up and lost in the annals of time. Proof of connections between individuals could be seen as purely coincidental, but when looking at the mass of transient people in Whitechapel at the time, it's probably less coincidental than not. A connection to the 19 year old Ellen McCarthy treated for syphilis would be interesting, as part of an overall picture of the casual and necessary role of prostitution at the time.
                                Thems the Vagaries.....

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