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  • Originally posted by DJA View Post
    I view Norfolk as a Anglo-Saxon enclave.
    Rather like Dublin being a Viking enclave.
    Hence the name Norfolk.
    Gehringer prolly derives from the Germanic "spear people".
    We're going back a thousand years and more.
    Trust you get my drift.
    Norfolk was the land of the Iceni, a sculpture of whose warrior queen, Boudicca (Boadicea when I went to school), stands on the Thames Embankment, a stone’s throw from Norman Shaw’s Scotland Yard building. Boudicca carries a spear, and the wheels of her chariot are armed with vicious-looking curved sword blades.

    Norfolk later fell within the Danelaw, so its history is more complex than you suggest.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

      Norfolk was the land of the Iceni, a sculpture of whose warrior queen, Boudicca (Boadicea when I went to school), stands on the Thames Embankment, a stone’s throw from Norman Shaw’s Scotland Yard building. Boudicca carries a spear, and the wheels of her chariot are armed with vicious-looking curved sword blades.

      Norfolk later fell within the Danelaw, so its history is more complex than you suggest.
      Boudica was a Briton, ergo a Celt

      Norfolk has Briton, Angle, Saxon, Norman and even Roman ancestry.

      and it’s ‘Boudica’


      TRD

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      • Oh and Viking of course, but very briefly.


        TRD

        Comment


        • Was discussing English history with a German friend ~ twenty years ago ......

          Germany was discovered by Germans,then it was invaded by more Germans,more Germans,the French,more Germans,more Germans,the Italians,Vikings,more Germans,Vikings posing as Frenchmen,more Germans ......

          He agreed.
          My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

            ‘Notorious gangster’? I must have missed that. Evidence for all the rest is there for anyone to see - by the bucket load.

            I’m guessing that at some point you convinced yourself that McCarthy was a senior figure in an imaginary Cockney Nostra and you can’t admit that you were wrong without losing face. There’s a lot of that goes on in Ripperology. No wonder the outside world perceives us in such a negative light.

            The claim that McCarthy may have been some kind of criminal gang leader is not unique to those who focus on the Ripper case though. The historian Dan Cruikshank when writing about Spitalfields has the impression that John McCarthy was in charge of some kind of English/ Irish gang.

            During their Friday walk Booth and French came face-to-face once more with Spitalfields gang life. In ‘Dorset Street’ they had encountered Jack McCarthy, who headed an Irish Catholic and English gang. Here, ‘on the west side of Little Pearl Street’, Booth writes, ‘lives F. Gehringer. “Barrows to let” – the owner of all the houses’ in a district that ‘remains as black as it was ten years ago. As the Dorset Street district belongs to a dweller in it, MacCarthy [sic], so this bit belongs to “Geringer” [in fact Frederick Gehringer] an inhabitant of Little Pearl Street.’ The majority of the properties in both these streets were common lodging houses for men and women, containing ‘doubles’ – or double beds – that to observers like Booth made them little better than brothels, so it is scarcely surprising that he should have listed the inhabitants of the street as ‘Thieves, bullies and prostitutes’. According to historian Fiona Rule, Gehringer was of German stock and controlled the area bordered by Quaker Street, Commercial Street and Grey Eagle Street – what Booth termed ‘the Little Pearl Street district’. His gang was, presumably, German/Jewish.

            Cruickshank, Dan. Spitalfields (pp. 533-534). Random House. Kindle Edition.
            To what extent can McCarthy be said to head up a gang?

            I confidently use the term ‘notorious’ to describe Jack McCarthy, slightly tongue in cheek, as Duckworth’s notes for the Booth notes records him that way. To what extent that could be extended to notorious gangster Jack McCarthy, I won't say. There's certainly some rough characters frequently to be found around him with Billy Maher and Lewis Lewinsky hanging around Dorset Street. He employed Henry Buckley, who seemed behave as some kind of enforcer in the Manning case and he must have carried a knife.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

              Weren’t the Wringers/Ringers from Norfolk? I don’t think I’ve ever looked into their genealogy. Perhaps their name did have a Germanic origin.
              Frederick Adam Gehringer, the senior was born in Germany probably Württemberg and later migrated to London. The earliest reference to a man who is probably him is a baker working in Brick Lane in 1852. By 1855, he is the landlord at the City of Norwich. He married Emma Gehringer, probably his second marriage, whose maiden name may have been Benmont and was British probably from Essex, sometime before 1861.

              Walter Ringer was from Norfolk. I doubt if their exists and have seen nothing which suggests any connection between the two families.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seanr View Post

                The claim that McCarthy may have been some kind of criminal gang leader is not unique to those who focus on the Ripper case though. The historian Dan Cruikshank when writing about Spitalfields has the impression that John McCarthy was in charge of some kind of English/ Irish gang.



                To what extent can McCarthy be said to head up a gang?

                I confidently use the term ‘notorious’ to describe Jack McCarthy, slightly tongue in cheek, as Duckworth’s notes for the Booth notes records him that way. To what extent that could be extended to notorious gangster Jack McCarthy, I won't say. There's certainly some rough characters frequently to be found around him with Billy Maher and Lewis Lewinsky hanging around Dorset Street. He employed Henry Buckley, who seemed behave as some kind of enforcer in the Manning case and he must have carried a knife.
                Of course there were rough characters around, and of course the lodging house keepers employed men who could keep order in their premises. Just as club owners and publicans in rough areas have always done.

                I have great respect for Dan Cruikshank, but I suspect his talk of gangs is his own interpretation. And you’ll notice he seems to believe that Booth himself wrote Duckworth’s notes, so he perhaps didn’t research the subject too deeply. I bet if you were to ask Dan Cruikshank who Billy Maher worked for, he’d answer, ‘Who?’

                It would seem that at one point Jack McCarthy’s younger brother, Danny, was Billy’s ‘governor’, but when Danny died he switched his allegiance to Danny’s widow, Anne (Bill Crossingham’s daughter). You may recall that Maher and two other men launched a vicious attack on Maggie Sullivan, then Bill Crossingham’s ‘faux wife’. Billy stabbed her in the face and the head and dragged her out of one of Crossingham’s houses. There was a suggestion at the time that Crossingham himself had ordered the attack. That’s as may be, but I suspect Ann May have been behind it in some way. I doubt there was any love lost between Ann and Maggie, the woman who would become her stepmother and who would eventually deprive her of her father’s legacy.




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                • I think Dorset Street JM may indeed have been a member of an organisation - the ‘Hambones’. Of course, the Jack McCarthy shown on this list after Marie Kendall and Steve McCarthy could have been an unassuming PS from Lambeth who had theatrical leanings.

                  You never know.
                  Last edited by MrBarnett; 11-01-2020, 05:29 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post

                    Of course there were rough characters around, and of course the lodging house keepers employed men who could keep order in their premises. Just as club owners and publicans in rough areas have always done.

                    I have great respect for Dan Cruikshank, but I suspect his talk of gangs is his own interpretation. And you’ll notice he seems to believe that Booth himself wrote Duckworth’s notes, so he perhaps didn’t research the subject too deeply. I bet if you were to ask Dan Cruikshank who Billy Maher worked for, he’d answer, ‘Who?’

                    It would seem that at one point Jack McCarthy’s younger brother, Danny, was Billy’s ‘governor’, but when Danny died he switched his allegiance to Danny’s widow, Anne (Bill Crossingham’s daughter). You may recall that Maher and two other men launched a vicious attack on Maggie Sullivan, then Bill Crossingham’s ‘faux wife’. Billy stabbed her in the face and the head and dragged her out of one of Crossingham’s houses. There was a suggestion at the time that Crossingham himself had ordered the attack. That’s as may be, but I suspect Ann May have been behind it in some way. I doubt there was any love lost between Ann and Maggie, the woman who would become her stepmother and who would eventually deprive her of her father’s legacy.



                    Maggie S. was stabbed in the face and side.

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                    • Keep going everyone...this is all leading towards something big. What, I have no idea, but its getting there slowly. Follow MrBarnett.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                        Keep going everyone...this is all leading towards something big. What, I have no idea, but its getting there slowly. Follow MrBarnett.
                        Hi Mr Nelson,

                        It's not in the realms of fantasy though, is it? Dorset St McCarthy was a dubious character for sure, but the name appearing on Abberlines leaving shindig doesn't mean it was impossible it was him, does it? I think Gary's done a fair job of presenting the case for Dorset Jack. If anything, the tangential Bobby namesake takes more convincing.

                        Abberline was the 'go to' man in Whitechapel. How did he keep his finger on the proverbial pulse? But that's speculation, and what Gary's posted is perfectly reasonable. It doesn't change much, there's no conspiracy. McCarthy was a prominent local business owner. Outside of the Ripper killings, I would imagine that Fred's insight into Whitechapel would rely on relationships with those types. That's also speculation on my part. By the by, Gary's points are reasonable. McCarthy was a ****, but a **** that could realistically contribute to a Whitechapel officer's do.

                        Just my view.
                        Thems the Vagaries.....

                        Comment


                        • Was McCarthy any more of a **** than Crossingham, Cooney or several other lodging keepers in the East End at the time? Evidence would be nice.

                          I think it’s quite quaint that some still live in hope that ‘something big’ might one day turn up. While such people are endlessly dreaming of breaking into King Tut’s tomb, others are sifting through piles of spoil looking for shards of pots or slivers of bone - and finding the exercise very rewarding.












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                          • Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

                            Boudica was a Briton, ergo a Celt

                            Norfolk has Briton, Angle, Saxon, Norman and even Roman ancestry.

                            and it’s ‘Boudica’


                            TRD
                            Ah, ‘Boudica’. Was that how she spelt it?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by seanr View Post

                              Frederick Adam Gehringer, the senior was born in Germany probably Württemberg and later migrated to London. The earliest reference to a man who is probably him is a baker working in Brick Lane in 1852. By 1855, he is the landlord at the City of Norwich. He married Emma Gehringer, probably his second marriage, whose maiden name may have been Benmont and was British probably from Essex, sometime before 1861.

                              Walter Ringer was from Norfolk. I doubt if their exists and have seen nothing which suggests any connection between the two families.
                              There are 16 listings in the Norfolk phone book for Ringer,zilch for Gehringer.
                              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

                                Abberline was the 'go to' man in Whitechapel. How did he keep his finger on the proverbial pulse?
                                By running a Consorting Squad with the likes of McCarthy supplying information.

                                My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                                Comment

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