A New Suspect - John Pavitt Sawyer

[Steven Russell]

However, I suspect he wasn't aware that Newland had left the White Swan and moved down the road to the George a couple of years prior to 1888, and actually died in 1887!

Surely this is conclusive isn't it?

Best wishes,
Steve.

[David Knott]

There are a couple of points that I mentioned on the previous thread, which (to me) suggest a hoax.

Firstly, in his letter Sawyer claims to have spent the whole of October 1888 in solitude, and to have been unaware of the fervour that his actions had caused. Unfortunately, during this period the real John Sawyer signed a petition requesting an increase in police numbers due to the effects that the crimes were having on local trade.

Secondly, 'Pearse' states that he can find no reason why the meetings were held in the White Swan, even though the most basic internet search reveals that one of the group, Decimus Newland, was the landlord there. I suspect that 'Pearse' was fully aware of that when he asked readers to contact him with any information he might have overlooked! However, I suspect he wasn't aware that Newland had left the White Swan and moved down the road to the George a couple of years prior to 1888, and actually died in 1887!

[serya]

At First Read

Just read it (well, scanned during the final research section).

Some impressions...

The author claims to still be a Freemason, and there are a lot of detailed explanations of various behind the scenes secret structures and ranks, surprising for the organization with such a well known reputation for secrecy. The explanation is that so much has been written in other books that it is now fair game, and these murders are too important to hold back on the details of Freemasonry. I guess I would be more likely to buy it if he were ex-Freemason rather than current as he states, but maybe I am placing too much importance on the secrecy aspect of it all. Can you be ex-Freemason? I claim ignorance on this subject, but the disclosure seemed overboard and actually not required in this detail IMO.

The subject of JTR was researched by a "crash course in what I was subsequently to learn is called Ripperology", stating he bought a "stack of books" but does not say which ones. Any guesses?

One of the things that struck me was the tone of the writing. Early on it reminded me of university student fiction I had read. Maybe credit is due to the editor's hand for the dramatic turn of phrase inserted throughout.

Nothing on the actual confession document, writing style, ink, paper, etc. Just that it is included in transcript, with some changes.

He states that the for the actual first person account by the suspect the language 'cleaned up' and some geographical facts filled in with hindsight, so it too also now has that same tone as the rest of the book, so feels like it is not coming from a different source spanning nearly a hundred years, but all from one writer's hand to my mind. We should see the original and compare, and why not put it up here on Casebook in the name of further research.

Since the author uses a fictional name and he seems to want to remain absent from the spotlight, as Lynn pointed out, it would be possible to reverse engineer the story after doing the research, all of which they are very careful to include in this book.

I'd be interested to hear from anybody who has read both this work and the fiction book mentioned by Barnaby "A Study In Red - The Secret Journal of Jack the Ripper" and share any similarities.

It seems reasonable to have them present the document for analysis.

[curious]

many thanks Serya - I hadn't seen that

Hi, Chris,
I read the book some time ago. I believe that the person who wrote the short book is doing what he believes is the right thing.

He checked out everything he had the ability to check, but when he found the three other men had actually lived and were Masons, the writer then put the book together so others who have a better knowledge of research can check things out.

Sally, the WHY is explained in the book. It's a sort of Masonic initiation.

Chris, I kept looking for some little detail that would say definitely, yes, this was JTR.

However, I did not find that. If I recall correctly, everything published in it could have come from knowledge the old man had gleaned from newspaper accounts of the crimes. (I figured he might have had to refresh his memory to get the dates and names in the right order.)

Lynn's mention of the use of Polly's murder as a practice run for the date he would be required to perform his first kill was inventive and that is one of the few distinct things that I remember.

Also, the way he tied the dates together I don't recall ever having read before and now, as I write, I don't recall the connection of the dates.

Since you have read it, did you find anything that definitely points to the old man having any insider knowledge?

It was too brief, no real details such as I would expect a murderer confessing to have.

I was an ancestry.com subscriber at the time and did a little research on the names, but nothing in any detail. The people named were all real.

I reached the conclusion that the man claiming to be JtR was a lonely old man who perhaps just wanted to be remembered -- but, of course, I can't understand his choosing that way to go about it.

What sort of feeling do you have about it, Chris?

[Chris Scott]

Correct, Chris. In the earlier thread that was linked the editor of the book stated that the name was changed to protect a retired man's privacy, adding that they just wanted to the information out without the notoriety.

many thanks Serya - I hadn't seen that

[serya]

Correct, Chris. In the earlier thread that was linked the editor of the book stated that the name was changed to protect a retired man's privacy, adding that they just wanted to the information out without the notoriety.

[Chris Scott]

I am sure that the name Pearse (of the author) is an assumed name for one reason - namely, the author says that his paternal grandfather was the son in law of John Sawyer. That would mean one of sawyer's daughters would have to have married a man named Pearse. None of them did.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Lynn,

PC Pearces name is actually spelt Pearce throughout his records and census returns.

Its only that brief mispelling in The Times (12 Oct 88) which, due to the fact its massively referenced to, causes lots of confusion.

Monty

Hi Monty,

As I recall the squad that Abberline formed to conduct his Whitechapel Murder interviews, which included Reid and Godley, also included a Pearce.

Is there any way of knowing whether this was PC Pearce?

[GregBaron]

Completely agree...

Ah, that's slightly different then. I think most would be sceptical about a secret Masonic plot. It's a nice bit of intrigue - people love that sort of stuff (as evidenced by the success of Dan Brown's books!) but the question you'd have to ask is always 'Why'? What would be the aim of a plot to mutilate prostitutes? Call me old-fashioned, but as soon as the number of perpetrators for these murders is multiplied it becomes less tenable. One is much more likely in my view. Anyway...

I couldn't agree more Sally, we're on the same page here.....

Thanks for the tip, Chris and Greg - I'm not terribly technologically inclined; I like real books - but I figure, if I can read books on Google Books (essential for all those obscure 19th century tomes) why not download Kindle reading software? Principle's the same.

Again, I'm the same Sally, I prefer old-fashioned paper books and remain as low tech as possible - but time marches on and resistance is futile as the Borg might say...........


Greg

[Sally]

That's just it Sally, as I recall, the whole motive is because of involvement in a secret branch of the secretive Masons. This is also very Dan Brown-ish....I also think someone learned this bizarre mutilation ritual from some tribe in India or something.......can truth be stranger than fiction in this case? Hmmm...I doubt it...

Ah, that's slightly different then. I think most would be sceptical about a secret Masonic plot. It's a nice bit of intrigue - people love that sort of stuff (as evidenced by the success of Dan Brown's books!) but the question you'd have to ask is always 'Why'? What would be the aim of a plot to mutilate prostitutes? Call me old-fashioned, but as soon as the number of perpetrators for these murders is multiplied it becomes less tenable. One is much more likely in my view. Anyway...

As to not having a Kindle you can download free Kindle reading software so you can read Kindle books on a PC Smartphone etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.h...cId=1000425503

Thanks for the tip, Chris and Greg - I'm not terribly technologically inclined; I like real books - but I figure, if I can read books on Google Books (essential for all those obscure 19th century tomes) why not download Kindle reading software? Principle's the same.

[Robert]

You'd think that a terminally ill man who was trying to teach someone a long story demanding word for word accuracy, would make a tape recording of it so that the other man could listen to that - it would save the dying man from having to keep reciting it.

[GregBaron]

Mediocre fiction...?

On Masons - I understand why most people interested in the case would shy away from any whiff of Masonic involvement in the Ripper murders; but to be fair, If Sawyer were the chief perpetrator, it need have nothing to do with his having been a Mason - it could have been incidental. A lot of people were Masons then.

That's just it Sally, as I recall, the whole motive is because of involvement in a secret branch of the secretive Masons. This is also very Dan Brown-ish....I also think someone learned this bizarre mutilation ritual from some tribe in India or something.......can truth be stranger than fiction in this case? Hmmm...I doubt it...

Yeah, also, you can download a pc version of Kindle to whatever machine you use - as Chris pointed out. I was able to read it on my laptop that way....the book is quite short if I remember correctly.....



Greg

[Chris Scott]

Hi Sally
As to why the family secret was kept so closely, the last paragraph of the "confession" reads as follows:-
"I pray my family name is never revealed, I do not ever wish to have brought such shame upon them, but perhaps I have achieved cursed immortality under that name which I have been given."

As to not having a Kindle you can download free Kindle reading software so you can read Kindle books on a PC Smartphone etc.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/feature.h...cId=1000425503

[Sally]

On Masons - I understand why most people interested in the case would shy away from any whiff of Masonic involvement in the Ripper murders; but to be fair, If Sawyer were the chief perpetrator, it need have nothing to do with his having been a Mason - it could have been incidental. A lot of people were Masons then.

Regarding the handed down brown attache case - one might be tempted to ask why news of this revelation hasn't reached to public ear before now? I think it would take relatively little to put together a plausible fiction. The answer may lie in the confession, if it can be produced. Then again, there is still no agreement about the date of the Maybrick Diary is there?

It's interesting though.

I don't have a Kindle, so can't read it for myself. Is any clue given as to the motive of these four men?

[Steven Russell]

Also the father of GWB story and Joseph Gorman's tales. But I feel that while there may be a Chinese whispers element to stories passed down through the generations, that is not a good enough reason to dismiss them out of hand.

Best wishes,
Steve