A general consensus as to what the Ripper may have looked like?

[Wickerman]

Hi Sister
If I am not mistaken, Lawende never identified or even saw the body. Only identified the clothing as being like he saw the women wearing when he saw them outside mitre square.

I have always had my doubts if lawende and company saw the ripper with Eddowes. He was the only witness to describe a "suspect" with fair hair.

You prettymuch encapsulated my thoughts entirely. The strength of Lawende's description appears to rest soley on his belief that the clothes he was shown belonged to Eddowes.
Women of those times dressed very similar. The clothes may not have belonged to Eddowes, the woman he saw may not have been Eddowes.
Lawende's description makes for extremely slender evidence.

I thought it was normal proceedure for the jury, prior to the commencement of the inquest, to view both the crime scene, & the body at the mortuary.
Strange that we know of no instance where Lawende was asked to view the body, perhaps because he did not see her face. However, as a witness for the inquiry Lawende may have seen her body at the mortuary.
We have no indication surviving in print that Lawende recognised her as the woman he saw, or not.

Regards, Jon S.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Greg,

The other thing with this:

Let's say he knows Watkin will return at 1.44.

He's still chatting at 1.35.

Let's say they enter the square at 1.36. Half a minute to get to the spot and kill.

Half a minute to cut the cloth, gather the organs and wrap them up.

That gives him 7 minutes.

If he's working to Watkin's return, then how does he know when his 7 minutes are up?

Presumably he doesn't have a watch.

Time flies when you're having fun as they say - how can he guage it? How can he tell the difference between say 5, 7, 9 minutes? How can he be sure he isn't going to overrun his time?

The sensible conclusion is that he worked to footsteps and other noises, and made his escape when he heard someone approaching.

Also, JTR positions himself not far from where Watkin enters the square, and where he can be seen by Harvey if he shines his lamp when he enters from Church Passage. If JTR knew the beats, wouldn't it have been wise to have positioned himself in the opposite corner where no policeman would have entered the square?

[Fleetwood Mac]

When I make it over the pond Fleetwood you can show me the fun spots....can hardly wait....

You're on, providing you return the favour - visit some of those civil war sites and Charlestown and the like.

I wonder how many other spots there were nearby Fleetwood? And I don't mean to be crude but it couldn't have been unusual to walk up upon a couple indulging in the dirty deed...this had to be embarrassing presumbably to both parties..........I guess it's progress that we now have these things called cars...

Hmmm, I suppose any back alley or quiet spot would have done the trick.

Not sure how embarrassing when they're all boozed right up to the eyeballs!

Nothing wrong with idle speculation Fleetwood but I think he knew he didn't have time to perform an MJK........he probably knew Watkins was due back soon.....

Really?

Well, he's chatting at 1.35am like he's out for a midnight stroll walking the dog and not a care in the world. Let's assume he knows Watkin will be back 1.44ish. Now that is a man with a brass neck - to think in a 9 minute less further chat time with Eddowes and walk to the spot period that he could kill her carve her up and wander off. I wonder if he walked round the square twice before making off just to push his luck!

[GregBaron]

Oops wrong turn...

I know, Greg. If you don't know what it means, then no use in me filling you in as I won't see you there for some 'fun'.

When I make it over the pond Fleetwood you can show me the fun spots....can hardly wait....

maybe it was haggis hunt night! I wasn't talking about playing"ring around the rosy", but more like, going to places they were used too and commonly used as "safer".

If this is true Sister Hyde it was obviously a complete failure...

That's a very good point. If Eddowes was taking punters there, then she won't have been the only one. I suppose the problem with that is they could have moved onto another spot nearby.

I wonder how many other spots there were nearby Fleetwood? And I don't mean to be crude but it couldn't have been unusual to walk up upon a couple indulging in the dirty deed...this had to be embarrassing presumbably to both parties..........I guess it's progress that we now have these things called cars...

According to Morris, he didn't open his door until 2-3 minutes prior to Watkins knocking at 1.44. Could it be that he disturbed JTR (if Morris is to be believed)? At the very least he must have been getting ready to leave or had just left. Who knows, maybe JTR was set for a MJK, but when he saw Morris open the door ajar and realised someone was active close by, he quickly wrapped the organs in the cloth and bolted before having the time to wipe his knife? Ahhhhh, just musings.

Nothing wrong with idle speculation Fleetwood but I think he knew he didn't have time to perform an MJK........he probably knew Watkins was due back soon.....


Greg

[Sister Hyde]

Just having some fun Fleetwood Mac although I don't know what this means....?

Doesn't it seem most likely that Eddowes went to play ring around the rosy at St. Botolph's Church to nail a client..........from there a quick jaunt to Mitre Square..........this must have been a known nearby spot for many of the ladies...this also supports your theory Fleetwood............the only reason I can think of for them dawdling in Church passage was they were waiting for an all clear...........someone must have been in the square.....another working girl perhaps? The night watchman? A Giant Rat?

Greg

maybe it was haggis hunt night! I wasn't talking about playing"ring around the rosy", but more like, going to places they were used too and commonly used as "safer". but the couple standing there to discuss prices and so on or standing there to wait for the square to be clear are possible options too.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Just having some fun Fleetwood Mac although I don't know what this means....?

I know, Greg. If you don't know what it means, then no use in me filling you in as I won't see you there for some 'fun'.

someone must have been in the square.....another working girl perhaps? The night watchman? A Giant Rat?

Greg

That's a very good point. If Eddowes was taking punters there, then she won't have been the only one. I suppose the problem with that is they could have moved onto another spot nearby.

According to Morris, he didn't open his door until 2-3 minutes prior to Watkins knocking at 1.44. Could it be that he disturbed JTR (if Morris is to be believed)? At the very least he must have been getting ready to leave or had just left. Who knows, maybe JTR was set for a MJK, but when he saw Morris open the door ajar and realised someone was active close by, he quickly wrapped the organs in the cloth and bolted before having the time to wipe his knife? Ahhhhh, just musings.

[GregBaron]

They'll be gone in a second...

Not my style, mate. I'm usually out on Clapham Common at 1.30 in the morning.

Just having some fun Fleetwood Mac although I don't know what this means....?

Doesn't it seem most likely that Eddowes went to play ring around the rosy at St. Botolph's Church to nail a client..........from there a quick jaunt to Mitre Square..........this must have been a known nearby spot for many of the ladies...this also supports your theory Fleetwood............the only reason I can think of for them dawdling in Church passage was they were waiting for an all clear...........someone must have been in the square.....another working girl perhaps? The night watchman? A Giant Rat?

Greg

[Sister Hyde]

Must seem I'm the contrary type, SH.

But,

I don't go along with the idea there was hysteria in Whitechapel.

I think prostitutes would have gone anywhere providing the prospective punter had a few bob on him - and it seems prostitutes did.

We know MJK took at least 1 person to her home.

I know what you mean, but it was mentioned that the prostitutes started to be more on their guard during the scare, and then after some weeks passed, things were normal again. Which can fit the case of MJK.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I have always tried to considerate the impact of the general "ripper scare" in the district too, which diod affect the prostitutes, and thus it's very very possible that the prostitutes only went solliciting in known or usual areas which they were used to and felt safe.

Must seem I'm the contrary type, SH.

But,

I don't go along with the idea there was hysteria in Whitechapel.

I think prostitutes would have gone anywhere providing the prospective punter had a few bob on him - and it seems prostitutes did.

We know MJK took at least 1 person to her home.

[Sister Hyde]

Of course they could.

I personally favour one of the known pick up spots. Seems easiest, seems the usual prostitute practice (I mean, how many purveyors of anything stand around where there are unlikely to be customers) and provides some sort of explanation as to why in Eddowes was let out of the police station 1 ish before been seen 1.30ish not too far away from the police station.

I have always tried to considerate the impact of the general "ripper scare" in the district too, which diod affect the prostitutes, and thus it's very very possible that the prostitutes only went solliciting in known or usual areas which they were used to and felt safe.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Why can't Church passage be the meeting spot Fleetwood? Maybe somebody was passing through Mitre Square and they were just waiting their turn?

And don't worry, you don't have to use a television reference, your secret is safe with me...

Greg

Of course they could.

I personally favour one of the known pick up spots. Seems easiest, seems the usual prostitute practice (I mean, how many purveyors of anything stand around where there are unlikely to be customers) and provides some sort of explanation as to why in Eddowes was let out of the police station 1 ish before been seen 1.30ish not too far away from the police station.

Edited to add:

Not my style, mate. I'm usually out on Clapham Common at 1.30 in the morning.

[GregBaron]

Meet you at Church passage...

Wouldn't that have been done at the meeting spot? "What you after love?", "this and that", "fine, let's go".

Otherwise, Eddowes could have been wasting her time going to a spot only to find out that it was a non starter.

From what I have seen on the television, which presumably is realistic, the details are organised on meeting, and then they go to a spot.

Why can't Church passage be the meeting spot Fleetwood? Maybe somebody was passing through Mitre Square and they were just waiting their turn?

And don't worry, you don't have to use a television reference, your secret is safe with me...

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

To Fleetwood Mac, maybe they were negotiating price, position or the plethora of services offered.

Greg

Wouldn't that have been done at the meeting spot? "What you after love?", "this and that", "fine, let's go".

Otherwise, Eddowes could have been wasting her time going to a spot only to find out that it was a non starter.

From what I have seen on the television, which presumably is realistic, the details are organised on meeting, and then they go to a spot.

[GregBaron]

Age is relative...

To the modern mind this suggests a man in his 40's or 50's; however, in the 19th century even a prosperous man would have no great expectation of living much beyond his 50th birthday. A man of 28-30 could be seen as "middle-aged" in that context.

I think this statement is basically true Phil. And I’m not sure that infant mortality is counted in average age of adult death but I could be wrong. I just watched one of those Youtube documentaries on Whitechapel and if I’m not mistaken it said the average adult death was at 25 and 1 in 5 children died before the age of 5. Again, my memory could be wrong here but I was astounded by the numbers.

Anyway, I don’t agree that 28-30 would be considered middle aged but few in Whitechapel would have lived to ripe old age, the West End would have fared better but nothing like today. I remember reading somewhere that the average age of death in America in the 19th century was about 45.

I expect one of our expert statisticians may be able to come to the rescue here.

On other topics, I agree with those who say none of the witnesses may have seen the fiend. Lawende, obviously, is the hardest to discount but he may have seen another couple.

Not sure where Errata gets her male/female dichotomies in height estimation but I agree with her general thesis that without a reference point we have no idea how tall people are.

To Fleetwood Mac, maybe they were negotiating price, position or the plethora of services offered.

Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Sister
If I am not mistaken, Lawende never identified or even saw the body. Only identified the clothing as being like he saw the women wearing when he saw them outside mitre square.

I have always had my doubts if lawende and company saw the ripper with Eddowes. He was the only witness to describe a "suspect" with fair hair.

I have no problem with the 'fair' description, and I do believe Blotchy was less than dark.

Anyway, I have a different problem with Lawende's couple as follows:

The doctor on the scene puts the murder at 1.35am earliest.

I will assume they were punter/whore as there is no sign or noise of anyone being dragged into a corner.

Watkins has passed at 1.30am.

Assuming this is punter/whore, they have met elsewhere and gone to that spot. Eddowes has ample time to pass Church Passage.

It's often being said that whores knew the police beats and how long they had.

So, whore taking a punter into the corner of a square. Eddowes knows Watkins has passed at 1.30am and will be back 1.45amish.

Why are the couple still talking at 1.35am? Why do they not make for the square at 1.31 am knowing the coast is clear and they have little time?