A general consensus as to what the Ripper may have looked like?

[Phil H]

The problem I have with Michael Kidney being the murderer of Elizabeth Stride is that the area may have been small but it wasn't that small, and if Liz was out working the streets that night and moving from place to place, how easy would it have been for Kidney to go out looking for her and actually find her? Especially before cars.

I addressed this same point in another thread a while back: there are several possibilities.

a) accident - most unlikely but not impossible;

b) tip-off - a mate saw Stride and her beau and told Kidney;

c) Kidney followed Liz and watched her (stalking).

There may be more, but that covers the main possibilities I thuink. I don't see it as an issue at all.

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

I don't necessarily follow the link from eddowes to Kelly. As I said in another post recently, MJK strikes me as being potentially the victim of someone trying to reproduce injuries he had read about but not seen.

I see no reason, on that basis why Stride should not have been a "domestic" - the murderer being Michael Kidney.

Phil

I was feigning not to have noticed the MJK remark not to generate an argument about convictions, but you're not afraid. You're a trooper!

[kensei]

Phil-
The problem I have with Michael Kidney being the murderer of Elizabeth Stride is that the area may have been small but it wasn't that small, and if Liz was out working the streets that night and moving from place to place, how easy would it have been for Kidney to go out looking for her and actually find her? Especially before cars.

[Sister Hyde]

I agree with that statement, Sister- the same person who laid Annie Chapman's intestines on her right shoulder the same way, and the same person who escalated his interest in attacking the face weeks later with Mary Kelly, and took her heart as a trophy just as he'd taken Kate's uterus and kidney.

Yes, the pattern of the slaughtering on Kate was unequivocal, same hand as Chapman, while for Stride it wasn't so obvious, either because it just wasn't the man, or because the man was disturbed.

[Phil H]

I don't necessarily follow the link from eddowes to Kelly. As I said in another post recently, MJK strikes me as being potentially the victim of someone trying to reproduce injuries he had read about but not seen.

On the "double event", don't forget there was a third murder that night elsewhere in London - a proven domestic. Was that a coincidence too, or should it have been attributed to JtR? (Just kidding to make a point.)

I see no reason, on that basis why Stride should not have been a "domestic" - the murderer being Michael Kidney.

No other JtR murder was south of Whitechapel High St/Road, and if one omits Stride from the list, lots of things about the Eddowes killing make more sense. "Jack" has more time, for one thing.

Phil

[kensei]

True.

And about the double murder event, I think the wounds inflicted on Eddowes leave no doubt on who did her.

I agree with that statement, Sister- the same person who laid Annie Chapman's intestines on her right shoulder the same way, and the same person who escalated his interest in attacking the face weeks later with Mary Kelly, and took her heart as a trophy just as he'd taken Kate's uterus and kidney.

[Sister Hyde]

Others have argued that the probablity of two murderers killing in such a short space of time makes it likely that Stride was JTR's - I've argued this in the past, too.

On reflection, though, a more appropriate comparison is comparing the likelihood of two murderers in a such a short space of time with one murderer killing once and 12 minutes away killing again. Both are highly unusual instances of human behaviour.

True.

And about the double murder event, I think the wounds inflicted on Eddowes leave no doubt on who did her.

[kensei]

Others have argued that the probablity of two murderers killing in such a short space of time makes it likely that Stride was JTR's - I've argued this in the past, too.

On reflection, though, a more appropriate comparison is comparing the likelihood of two murderers in a such a short space of time with one murderer killing once and 12 minutes away killing again. Both are highly unusual instances of human behaviour.

Ted Bundy kidnapped and killed a victim at Lake Sammamish, then returned and kidnapped and killed a second from the same place, all within a few hours. It's not unprecedented. But highly unusual instances of human behavior? Yes, absolutely.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I've always had my doubts on Stride being a Ripper victim, so of course, I like the idea.

Others have argued that the probablity of two murderers killing in such a short space of time makes it likely that Stride was JTR's - I've argued this in the past, too.

On reflection, though, a more appropriate comparison is comparing the likelihood of two murderers in a such a short space of time with one murderer killing once and 12 minutes away killing again. Both are highly unusual instances of human behaviour.

[kensei]

Wow, this thread caught fire and spread quickly in one day and I have just now seen it. My thoughts on any question as to what the Ripper looked like have always been- male caucasian late twenties to early thirties, medium build, average height below six feet, moustache, wearing a dark overcoat and a cap. This is all people were able to recall in cases where they glimpsed something for a fleeting instant that they had no idea would be important later and so they took little notice, in poor lighting conditions where even such things as complexion and color of hair and clothing might be uncertain. I've stated that I am a traditional C5 supporter, and from that standpoint I feel that the witnesses in the Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes cases could have easily been describing the same man in the same general outfit. I think a "peaked cap" and a "deerstalker cap" could be one and the same given the conditions described above. Schwartz was the only witness who actually saw an assault going down and he was most concerned with getting the heck out of there, and Lawende saw no reason at the time of his sighting to place any importance on it. I think their subsequent recollections of what they saw were close enough to be describing the same man. Elizabeth Long's sighting on Hanbury Street is also general enough to be of the same man in the same outfit- a 30-ish moustached man in a dark coat and a cap. We only run into trouble with Hutchinson's Astrakan Man, and that's a whole other area of discussion.

I've stated elsewhere that I think it most likely that the Ripper was someone who's never been named, but if not then James Kelly is my favorite suspect. He was born in 1860- 28 at the time of the murders, and sporting a moustache. I do not find it impossible that Long, Schwartz, and Lawende were all describing him. Probable? No, just not impossible.

[Sister Hyde]

I've always had my doubts on Stride being a Ripper victim, so of course, I like the idea.

[Phil H]

It's not a stupid scenario, even if they didn't meet by prior arrangement.

Why thank you, Sister!!

[Sister Hyde]

On timings, I'd like to propose a slightly different scenario to that which many like to contemplate.

Let's accept (for a moment) that the man and woman Lawende saw, was "Jack" and Eddowes.

Let's also accept that Stride was not a victim of JtR, so he does not have any time constraints in moving north from Berners St to the Aldgate area.

That gives "Jack" abundant time either to encounter Eddowes, by chance (it could have been any woman) on her release from the cells, engage her in conversation, be propositioned, or proposition her, and then have her lead him to the Square.

They reach the end of the passage, when "Jack" hears three men approaching, rather than continue into the Square, he pulls Eddowes back into the shadows (which might explain the position in which they were seen) close together with her hand on his chest. It would be a perfectly normal gesture, the hand pushing the waoman AWAY from such close contact with a relatively unknown man.

Once the three men have passed, the couple go into the Square and "Jack" strikes.

I recognise that this is suppositional, playing with ideas, but note that we now do not have to contemplate "Jack" rapidly convincing Eddowes to go with him - all that has been done earlier. It makes even more sense in the (probably unlikely) event that they met by prior arrangement.

Phil

It's not a stupid scenario, even if they didn't meet by prior arrangement.

[Phil H]

On timings, I'd like to propose a slightly different scenario to that which many like to contemplate.

Let's accept (for a moment) that the man and woman Lawende saw, was "Jack" and Eddowes.

Let's also accept that Stride was not a victim of JtR, so he does not have any time constraints in moving north from Berners St to the Aldgate area.

That gives "Jack" abundant time either to encounter Eddowes, by chance (it could have been any woman) on her release from the cells, engage her in conversation, be propositioned, or proposition her, and then have her lead him to the Square.

They reach the end of the passage, when "Jack" hears three men approaching, rather than continue into the Square, he pulls Eddowes back into the shadows (which might explain the position in which they were seen) close together with her hand on his chest. It would be a perfectly normal gesture, the hand pushing the waoman AWAY from such close contact with a relatively unknown man.

Once the three men have passed, the couple go into the Square and "Jack" strikes.

I recognise that this is suppositional, playing with ideas, but note that we now do not have to contemplate "Jack" rapidly convincing Eddowes to go with him - all that has been done earlier. It makes even more sense in the (probably unlikely) event that they met by prior arrangement.

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

Hi Greg,

Well, if you believe the Ripper was a local or someone who knew the district, and that he might have been a regular prostitute client, it wouldn't be so strange that it would fail.

Hi FM,

"Well, he's chatting at 1.35am like he's out for a midnight stroll walking the dog and not a care in the world. Let's assume he knows Watkin will be back 1.44ish. Now that is a man with a brass neck - to think in a 9 minute less further chat time with Eddowes and walk to the spot period that he could kill her carve her up and wander off. I wonder if he walked round the square twice before making off just to push his luck!"

Well if you do believe that the GSG was genuine, it would mean he "pushed" his luck veeery far.