A general consensus as to what the Ripper may have looked like?

[Phil H]

Which then begs the question: if he could hear their footsteps then why can't they hear his?

In the case of Castle Alley (McKenzie) they did, did they not, also Coles?

Of course, with the canonicals, people may have heard him and not recognised the fact.

Phil

[GregBaron]

Silent slippers...

Which then begs the question: if he could hear their footsteps then why can't they hear his?

Remember he wore those Canadian galoshes...I forget what they're called? This idea of course has been thrashed and trashed.....

By the way, and this is hugely off thread, if ripperologists have not read Edgar Allan Poe's "A Man of the Crowd" they should............it's eerily prescient of Whitechapel and even mentions noise reducing slippers worn by (I think) the trailing narrator..............it's supposed to take place in London as well.....including sojourns through numerous back alleys and dark streets.....amazing...another less recognized work by the Master...


Greg

[Fleetwood Mac]

But I agree with your basic premise that he judged when to bail by footsteps or other noises...

Greg

Which then begs the question: if he could hear their footsteps then why can't they hear his?

Lends some weight to Cox's description of the man walking up the court 'making no noise'.

Always had a sneaking feeling for Blotchy for this. Still, 'short stout' would put him more in line with Levy than Lawende. Too many questions; not enough in the way of answers!

[GregBaron]

Time to clean and go...

You're on, providing you return the favour - visit some of those civil war sites and Charlestown and the like.

Hi Fleetwood Mac, I'd be happy to guide you around Charleston, it is a rather charming little city with lots of drinking establishments............

Greg,

The other thing with this:

Let's say he knows Watkin will return at 1.44.

He's still chatting at 1.35.

Let's say they enter the square at 1.36. Half a minute to get to the spot and kill.

Half a minute to cut the cloth, gather the organs and wrap them up.

That gives him 7 minutes.

If he's working to Watkin's return, then how does he know when his 7 minutes are up?

Presumably he doesn't have a watch.

Time flies when you're having fun as they say - how can he guage it? How can he tell the difference between say 5, 7, 9 minutes? How can he be sure he isn't going to overrun his time?

The sensible conclusion is that he worked to footsteps and other noises, and made his escape when he heard someone approaching.

Also, JTR positions himself not far from where Watkin enters the square, and where he can be seen by Harvey if he shines his lamp when he enters from Church Passage. If JTR knew the beats, wouldn't it have been wise to have positioned himself in the opposite corner where no policeman would have entered the square?

Fleetwood, I'm not suggesting that Jack carried around a little notebook complete with Bobby beat times. I think he just probably knew he didn't have that long until a cop or other disturber came through. It's possible he knew the specific beat and even more likely that Eddowes did.

As for switching corners, I think perhaps the chosen one was the darkest in the square plus moving to the other side would put him closer to the night watchman who from there might hear the disturbance....

But I agree with your basic premise that he judged when to bail by footsteps or other noises...

Greg

[Sister Hyde]

Again Syster Hyde, I completely agree with you here, Whitechapel was just an incident away from instituting its own pogroms...

Yes, all that was needed was a match, which the people had already got with the Leather Apron scare, so, almost from the beginning of the case.

[GregBaron]

Riots in the streets...

Even beyond the "pejorative" aspect, just publishing Hutchinson's statement with the word "jewish" or "jew", would have incured the wrath of the locals toward the jewish community of Whitechapel, and since there had obviously been outbursts against them in the district because of the case, I guess they didn't want to fuel even more unjustified violence.

Again Syster Hyde, I completely agree with you here, Whitechapel was just an incident away from instituting its own pogroms...

I totally agree with you, Greg.

Wow, Rubyretro, this is a first for me...........remind me to buy you a glass of wine someday...

Greg

[Sister Hyde]

I think you're right on the money here Sister Hyde. The word Jew, if spoken in a certain tone by a Gentile, is a pejorative in itself not unlike "Lipski" at that time.

Greg

Hi Greg,

Even beyond the "pejorative" aspect, just publishing Hutchinson's statement with the word "jewish" or "jew", would have incured the wrath of the locals toward the jewish community of Whitechapel, and since there had obviously been outbursts against them in the district because of the case, I guess they didn't want to fuel even more unjustified violence.

[Rubyretro]

I think you're right on the money here Sister Hyde. The word Jew, if spoken in a certain tone by a Gentile, is a pejorative in itself not unlike "Lipski" at that time.

To Kensei:

Despite the unreliability of witnesses, darkness and other drawbacks, I have a hard time thinking Mrs. Long and Lawende described the same person.

Long - dark, foreign, 40-something
Lawende - fair mustache, sailor, 28

Neither may have been the culprit.........

Greg

I totally agree with you, Greg.

[GregBaron]

Euphemisms...

I think the police was afraid that anti-semitic attacks would suddenly increase in the district as well, so using the word "foreigner" instead of "jewish" seems like the right "euphemism".

I think you're right on the money here Sister Hyde. The word Jew, if spoken in a certain tone by a Gentile, is a pejorative in itself not unlike "Lipski" at that time.

To Kensei:

Despite the unreliability of witnesses, darkness and other drawbacks, I have a hard time thinking Mrs. Long and Lawende described the same person.

Long - dark, foreign, 40-something
Lawende - fair mustache, sailor, 28

Neither may have been the culprit.........

Greg

[Sister Hyde]

Also, I don't have the source here, wasn't Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man amended from Jewish to "foreigner" for publication? That seems a pretty specific parallel, if so.

Phil

I think the police was afraid that anti-semitic attacks would suddenly increase in the district as well, so using the word "foreigner" instead of "jewish" seems like the right "euphemism".

[Phil H]

From my reading of period books, I seem to recall that the Victorians had a variety of words for foreigners, often precise but by today's standards perjorative:

lascars, coolies, levantines, orientals etc, and others for those of African or Carribbean origin.

I think they would have talked of Frenchmen, Germans, Italians quite specifically.

Also, I don't have the source here, wasn't Hutchinson's description of Astrakhan Man amended from Jewish to "foreigner" for publication? That seems a pretty specific parallel, if so.

Phil

[Sister Hyde]

Hello Sister Hyde,

I take it simply to mean someone from outside the area in this context - I think the residents would recognise someone as an outsider. Again from my newspaper skimmimg, Daily Standard 13.9.88, a woman who had reportedly lived in the area for twenty years states that (she believes) the murderer "did not belong to them" (the people who lived there).

And what would such an assertion be based on? the clothing? language level?

[curious4]

Hi Curious,

Now that's a good one too! Of course, I think when people were saying "he looked like a foreigner", it was meant in a pejorative way, or at least in a cliché way, unless what they meant was that he "sounded" foreigner, because of an accent or so, because otherwise, unless you are swarthy or show "exotic" features, your nationality isn't written on your forehead.
For the option of the word "foreigner" being employed about someone from outside the "area", I don't know how that could be judged, clothing maybe? clothing indicating either the trade or the class of the person?

Cam

Hello Sister Hyde,

I take it simply to mean someone from outside the area in this context - I think the residents would recognise someone as an outsider. Again from my newspaper skimmimg, Daily Standard 13.9.88, a woman who had reportedly lived in the area for twenty years states that (she believes) the murderer "did not belong to them" (the people who lived there).

Hello Phil H,

Can´t prove or disprove what you say about the word foreigner always being used to designate a Jew but do you have any evidence to back this up. After all not all immigrants were necessarily Jewish and if they meant Jew, why not say so?

With the best will in the world,
C4

[Sister Hyde]

Hello Sister.

"Yes, the pattern of the slaughtering on Kate was unequivocal, same hand as Chapman"

Ah! But that's not what the inquest team thought!

Cheers.
LC

and it wouldn't be the first time the inquest team was not unanimous on something.

[lynn cates]

Baxter and Bagster

Hello Sister.

"Yes, the pattern of the slaughtering on Kate was unequivocal, same hand as Chapman"

Ah! But that's not what the inquest team thought!

Cheers.
LC