mann

[Chris]

It is good to have an open mind based on solid knowledge of what is possible in relation to how workhouses operated and how Kate was out at 8 A.M. shows that it was possible to go out this early. It also shows that the rules were not set in stone.

As has already been pointed out, Eddowes was apparently in the casual ward - she wasn't an inmate of the workhouse, as Mann was.

According to the Times report of John Kelly's inquest testimony, the reason she left the casual ward so early was that she was thrown out of it:
When he saw her so early on the Saturday morning she told him that there had been some bother at the casual ward, and that that was why she had been turned out so soon.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881005.html

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi Miss Marple,

I think the 2 parts I highlighted may have exceptions....and case in point is Kate Eddowes experiences. If she hawked the boots on Friday night like the slip states, not Saturday morning, then she would have had some money on her that night....but according to the story, she is accepted into a workhouse. Also according to the story of her last full night, she meets with Kelly for breakfast around 8:30am......something that could not happen from a work house, she would... as you say.... be compelled to do that work before she is discharged. Traditionally, the poor came in at night and did those chores in the morning. Yet Kate was out by 8am.

I have no opinion on Mann as a suspect, I dont know enough about the case against him or the man himself, but if the above was the truth...then there were ways to either avoid the chores or gain entry while having some doss on your person. Maybe they just took the money, like I understand they did with anything the paupers had on them.

Best regards Miss Marple

Perrymason,

It is good to have an open mind based on solid knowledge of what is possible in relation to how workhouses operated and how Kate was out at 8 A.M. shows that it was possible to go out this early. It also shows that the rules were not set in stone.

I think it has to be said that - in the absence of any suggestion as to how he could have got out of the workhouse at night - he actually has an alibi for all the murders. I'm really not sure there's much point in discussing the other problems until that one has been dealt with.

"... it has to be said ..."

Indeed it does!

[lynn cates]

older model of Jack

Hello. It seems to me that if one can overcome the work house logistics regarding coming and going, one could overcome the age aspect of Mann by reverting to the pre-punter models of Jack where he comes out of the shadows suddenly. This is about the only way to explain the eyewitness accounts of Jack as a younger man--they were all someone else.

Of course, there would be a great difficulty in the case of Eddowes.

Cheers.
LC

[miss marple]

Casual ward

Hi Michael,
Kate Eddowes did not go to a workhouse, but to a Casual Ward, slightly different Notice the name, casual,they opened at 6 in morning you had to work or you were kept in, you could get bath, bed. but you could leave once you had done the work, it was voluntary.
The workhouse was closer to prison,with strict poor law regulations, people could be sent there and stay for years.
Cheers Miss Marple

[Radical Joe]

Joe,its on again Wednesday at 10pm (discovery channel 520sky)

Thanks for that.

The workhouse connection puts him completely of the frame. To spell it out again.
The only people admitted to workhouses, apart from the old and sick, were paupers. People with no money, no income, and no work. Although in 1881 census Mann was described as a dock labourer, pauper, all that means is that some time in the past he had been a casual labourer at the docks, but had not worked for a while.
Once in the workhouse, EVERY INMATE HAD TO WORK, unless they were seriously ill. They were given all kinds of jobs from picking oakam, breaking stones, cleaning,working in the kitchens, laundry or mortuary attendant. Mann was NOT a member of staff because he worked in the mortuary. It was an unpleasent job, probably given to Mann, because he had been in workhouses a long time,was a bit simple, and undisturbed by the atmosphere.
The inmates wore uniform.they were sent to the workhouse for fixed periods sometimes years.The men and women were in seperate dormatories, lights out, locked in at night.
Families were seperated, childen seperated from parents, given a basic education, that did not include literacy. The food was gruel, broth a bit cheese. The rules were harsh, the existence monontonous.Things had not changed much from the days of Dicken's Oliver Twist
Ending in the workhouse was the dread of every working class person, they were feared.
They designed to punish the poor, the thinking being if they were bad enough, the poor would avoid falling into pauperism.
The idea that a workhouse pauper is hanging out in pubs picking up prostitutes is up there with some of the wilder JR theories.
Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple,

I think the 2 parts I highlighted may have exceptions....and case in point is Kate Eddowes experiences. If she hawked the boots on Friday night like the slip states, not Saturday morning, then she would have had some money on her that night....but according to the story, she is accepted into a workhouse. Also according to the story of her last full night, she meets with Kelly for breakfast around 8:30am......something that could not happen from a work house, she would... as you say.... be compelled to do that work before she is discharged. Traditionally, the poor came in at night and did those chores in the morning. Yet Kate was out by 8am.

I have no opinion on Mann as a suspect, I dont know enough about the case against him or the man himself, but if the above was the truth...then there were ways to either avoid the chores or gain entry while having some doss on your person. Maybe they just took the money, like I understand they did with anything the paupers had on them.

Best regards Miss Marple

[miss marple]

workhouse

The workhouse connection puts him completely of the frame. To spell it out again.
The only people admitted to workhouses, apart from the old and sick, were paupers. People with no money, no income, and no work. Although in 1881 census Mann was described as a dock labourer, pauper, all that means is that some time in the past he had been a casual labourer at the docks, but had not worked for a while.
Once in the workhouse, EVERY INMATE HAD TO WORK, unless they were seriously ill. They were given all kinds of jobs from picking oakam, breaking stones, cleaning,working in the kitchens, laundry or mortuary attendant. Mann was NOT a member of staff because he worked in the mortuary. It was an unpleasent job, probably given to Mann, because he had been in workhouses a long time,was a bit simple, and undisturbed by the atmosphere.
The inmates wore uniform.they were sent to the workhouse for fixed periods sometimes years.The men and women were in seperate dormatories, lights out, locked in at night.
Families were seperated, childen seperated from parents, given a basic education, that did not include literacy. The food was gruel, broth a bit cheese. The rules were harsh, the existence monontonous.Things had not changed much from the days of Dicken's Oliver Twist
Ending in the workhouse was the dread of every working class person, they were feared.
They designed to punish the poor, the thinking being if they were bad enough, the poor would avoid falling into pauperism.
The idea that a workhouse pauper is hanging out in pubs picking up prostitutes is up there with some of the wilder JR theories.
Miss Marple

[Doppelganger]

Would you care to expand on who you beleive were the "other" victims ?

Serial killers don`t go from 0 to 60 at the drop of the hat he would have started off assaulting women & worked his way up to murder and his first murder would have been without mutilations that is the pattern of most serial killers.

[dixon9]

Joe,its on again Wednesday at 10pm (discovery channel 520sky)

[Radical Joe]

B*ll*x!

All the posts I made on this topic, asking others to watch the show and listen to the arguments before casting judgement - and I went out and forgot to record it! Ah well, perhaps it'll turn up on youtube.

I understand Trow never pointed out how Mann had freedom of movement during the period, which is surely vital given his workhouse status. Dissapointed if so.

And, did he address the fact that Mann was older than any witness statements suggest? Again, important given how he previously argued that other suspects of a similar age should be discounted on the same grounds.

[scarletpimpernel]

From the Daily Telegraph, 21 September 1888:

Tickets for beds are issued from five p.m. until 12.30 midnight, and after that hour if a man wants to get in he must have a pass.

It would seem, therefore, that access to the Victoria Home was available to lodgers in possession of a pass at any time after 12:30.

But back to Robert Mann...[/QUOTE]

Hi Ben,

Thank you for that useful information.

In the programme, Mann's place of work at the mortuary and where he lived were two separate places but very close to each other. Another interesting thing, is that all the killings were between 3 to 5 minutes walk from those two places too. Here we have a suspect who was brought up in that area, so he knew it like the palm of his hand worked and lived all his life in the vecinity of his killing ground. To me, at least, It would explain quite neatly that this is why he has gone undetected; he had two hiding places and it wouldn't have been suspicious to see him with blood here or there, since that was his line of work. Also, working as an assistant mortician, he is in the perfect place to pickle a kidney, all the bottles are right there, at his finger tips. Another interesting bit is that all the victims ended up in that particular mortuary, for someone who has that type of fetichism, he knows that he will have another chance to touch again what he did in the street.

[Ben]

So you "intended" to insult me unprovoked on a thread in which I wasn't participating?

I really don't know who raises some people round here...

... makes the following insulting accusation:

As it was intended to be!

[Ben]

Some hysterical nitwit who peppers every post he makes with too many pretty colours and exclamation marks makes the following insulting accusation:

This is eerily reminiscent of the attempts of a certain poster to con us all into believing that the Victoria Home for Working Men, Commercial Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel, kept its doors open throughout the night.

From the Daily Telegraph, 21 September 1888:

Tickets for beds are issued from five p.m. until 12.30 midnight, and after that hour if a man wants to get in he must have a pass.

It would seem, therefore, that access to the Victoria Home was available to lodgers in possession of a pass at any time after 12:30.

But back to Robert Mann...