Did Jack the Ripper even exist?

[Mitch Rowe]

You'll all be perfectly aware then that a man called Johnson was charged with stabbing two unfortunates in the space of a few minutes the night before the attack on Stride and Eddowes?

And the point? Are you saying this man Johnson killed Stride or Eddowes? Or that johnson was only guilty of one of the murders he was accused of?

The fact is if you walk into a convenience store and see two people dead by murder you assume they are connected unless evidence proves otherwise.

So far I have heard no one say that the first attack on world trade center was actually an accident as first assumed and that the second attack was actually an attack but unrelated to the first accident.

[Cap'n Jack]

You'll all be perfectly aware then that a man called Johnson was charged with stabbing two unfortunates in the space of a few minutes the night before the attack on Stride and Eddowes?

[Tom_Wescott]

Michael,

What evidence did Bond and Macnaghten use to conclude that Polly, Chapman, and Eddowes were slayed by the same hand? I'm you would agree this is just as important and vexing a question, if not moreso, since at least one of Bond's colleagues (Phillips) saw good reason to believe that Eddowes was slain by an impostor.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Mitch Rowe]

The only "link" is the one you mentioned...she was killed on a Ripper night.Cheers Mitch

She was killed 45 minutes before Kate. Soo.. regardless of ANY physical evidence the chances that she was killed by someone other than the same person who killed Eddowes is VERY VERY slim indeed. I belive there is more corroborating evidence to include Stride but it need not be mentioned as the timing says it all.

[Cap'n Jack]

I wouldn't cheer Mitch, I'd rather boil the idle fellow's head in a bucket of water.
Talk about drowning in your own vomit.

Stride was killed abt 45 minutes before Eddowes and since no one has challenged Eddowes inclusion then one must conclude it is 99.999% probable that Stride was killed by JTR.

So far I havent heard a single credible argument concerning Stride that has even come close to discounting Stride on the basis of the physical evidence.

Thats quite a statement, since all the physical and circumstantial evidence suggests she had one of two arteries severed completely, she may have been cut while falling, she has a witnessed altercation almost on her murder site 15 minutes before she is found, and she is on her side, without anything being disturbed since she was "lain gently down"...in a yard that has been testified as empty since 12:40am.

Your first statement is about how I envision the police must have concluded she was a Ripper victim, retroactively, after they had some proof the Ripper killer was likely out that particular night, with Kates murder.

There is not one single shred of evidence that ties Elizabeth Stride to any Canonical Victim other than she died by knife after midnight and she was a homeless that night...(by choice that night,...she had earned doss that afternoon),...Unfortunate. The only "link" is the one you mentioned...she was killed on a Ripper night.

Cheers Mitch

[Mitch Rowe]

MacNaghtens opinion on a suspect doesnt really matter. Just like Abberlines opinion. They didnt know so they filled in the blanks themselves.

As far as the physical evidence that links the crimes it is very simple You just start figuring out what the chances are that two specific events could happen with two different killers. Now the chances that two murderers are going to cut completely right round the neck. Two killers are going to leave two notches in each victims neck. And that two killers are going to remove three flaps of belly skin from each victim is soo astronomically high that when these three clues are multiplied by each other I say it becomes impossible to conclude that AC and MJK were not killed by the same person.

No one has ever challenged Pollys inclusion so I wont say anything.
Eddowes has not been challenged either.

Stride was killed abt 45 minutes before Eddowes and since no one has challenged Eddowes inclusion then one must conclude it is 99.999% probable that Stride was killed by JTR.

So far I havent heard a single credible argument concerning Stride that has even come close to discounting Stride on the basis of the physical evidence.

Dude.. Its no use arguing with them. It appears they think they are smarter than the average homicide detective. Or even the above average homicide detective. Or even MacNaghten!

You can be assured MacNaghten was using the correct methods of detective work when he first determined and then proclaimed there were only 5 murders and 5 only that are attributed to JTR.

Heres Macnagten at his best...and its solely based on speculation written when the murders were occurring....because he wasnt assigned until 1889......

"I have a very clear idea who he was and how he committed suicide..." (Daily Mail) and "Although...the Whitechapel murderer, in all probability, put an end to himself soon after the Dorset Street affair in November 1888, certain facts pointing to this conclusion, were not in possession of the police till some years after I became a detective officer." (Days of My Years, 1914)".

He does everything but say Montague Druitt....and the only evidence that links him to the crimes are hints his family thought so by investigators notes...and that he killed himself weeks after the last Canonical death.

I would think its in anyones best interest to evaluate the Canonical Group based on "evidence that links"...not opinion that suggests.

When you can answer what the actual evidence is that was used by Macnagten and Bond to conclude that Liz Stride was murdered by the man that killed Polly, or the one that killed Annie...or the one that killed Kate or Mary....then you will be the first in history to do so.

Best regards

[Mitch Rowe]

Take as much time off as you want. I had 2 hours. Jack killed 5. No less.
Jack was a serial killer.

Dude.. Its no use arguing with them. It appears they think they are smarter than the average homicide detective. Or even the above average homicide detective. Or even MacNaghten!

You can be assured MacNaghten was using the correct methods of detective work when he first determined and then proclaimed there were only 5 murders and 5 only that are attributed to JTR.

[DarkPassenger]

Hi DP,
Minor correction - in the interests of sticking to the facts, you understand...

At least one of those 5 murders wasn't conducted in a "very similar" way to the others, and the signature was nowhere near as unique as that seen among the remaining "canonical" victims. Throat cutting stands as a rather banal method of committing murder, and Stride's death was no different in that respect than any number of predecessors and successors who perished in a similar manner.

I have to agree there - but there's still four victims lying dead. I personally am a bit of a Stride-denier.

That's neither strictly true, nor a rationale that I'd recommend

The same was suggested of the Yorkshire Ripper - the top cops said a few times that there were two serial killers active. And the Boston Strangler - it was suggested that two killers were active. I've even seen the same about the Suffolk Strangler, because some victims were dumped in water and others in woodland (however, the people suggesting this were of the mind that serial killers are stuck in their ways solidly and deterministically, which is bullshit.)

[cbenee]

'Such precise mutilations - or consistent, should I say.'
That doesn't sit too well though with the concept of a 'frenzied' attack, does it?
I'm quite prepared to believe that the mythical monster we know as 'Jack the Ripper' never existed at all.
As I have often pointed out I have found similar cases from the LVP where prostitutes have been viciously attacked in a robbery where the attempts by the robbers to remove the victim' stays and skirts with blades to get at their secret pocket has resulted in what could be seen later as a frenzied attack upon their person rather than their possessions.
Many of these cases showed a total disregard for the life of the woman who was being robbed, and knife wounds to the throat, breasts, abdomen and genitalia were not uncommon.

I think it both amusing and rewarding to refelect on some research I did here on site some years ago, which showed that the same number of East End women were either murdered, or severely injured, in attacks with blades in 1887, 1888 and 1889.
So if we accept as fact that Jack the Ripper existed then his murderous rampage had no impact on the statistics of murder in that time slice of the LVP, which must mean that he never existed.
Because if a serial killer suddenly starts operating in a very restricted area of Whitechapel then the statistics would surely reflect that peculiar situation.

Just reading through this for first time so sorry if this has been answered

Wouldn't you say that the greatly increased police presence in the area for 4 months of 88 means you would expect to see a FALL in the numbers?

Therefore for them to stay the same would indicate that something kept them higher?

ie without there being a murderer around, the hugely ncreased police prescence would have made the figures lower for 88 than they were for 87 and 89?

To Nothing To See,

You cannot win an argument where you suggest that only one serial killer is evident in the records at the time of Jack the Ripper....its provably incorrect. Someone killed and chopped up a woman in August and parts of her were found October 2-3rd...there is another such event the following year. The Pinchin Street and Whitehall Torsos. There were also some Torsos found pre 88. Its far less likely that these acts were unrelated than it is that Liz Stride and say Annie Chapmans murders were. You also have several unsolved cases from the Spring that may have an individual assailant. And of course Martha is not a Canonical Victim....so you need to explain that murder as well. Alice McKenzie was momentarily thought to be Jack back at work based on the police response to the crime,...but if it wasnt, there is another knife murder unattributed to Jacky.

Jack and at the very least Torso Maker...operated simultaneously..they both killed in August of 1888. And other men killed with knives before and after the Fall blitz.

But of all those victims that have no murderer named, some 13 or 14...including the Canonicals, ...only 4 had postmortem mutilations done specifically and primarily to their abdomens. And its possible the first three were consecutive murders....if you eliminate Liz Strides single wound murder....which leaves the possibility that the 4th one that occurs the following year might be emulation.

Best regards

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Jack killed 5. No less.
Jack was a serial killer.

You can be a serial killer by claiming as few as three victims.

[Nothing to see]

Take as much time off as you want. I had 2 hours. Jack killed 5. No less.
Jack was a serial killer.

[sdreid]

There is really no settled definition of serial killer. I subscribe to the C5 at a minimum but if the "series" was just Nichols-Chapman-Eddowes then by the most exclusive definition, that is that the murders spanned less than 5 weeks, then there was still a Jack the Ripper but he was a spree rather than a serial killer. I've also seen definitions that require as many as 5 victims or as few as 2.