George Hitchinson: a simple question

[joelhall]

Hi Joel

According to Charles Booth " Life and Labour of the people in London", 1903,
most pubs opened at 07.30 or 08.00 and closed at 12.30.

Hi Joel

Yes, and the one in the centre of the photo in post #254 would be the one above the entrance to Crossinghams across the road from Millers Court. Chris Scott recently posted a report from a Scottish newspaper that stated that Dorset Street was very brightly lit at night but I can't find it in order to quote. Hutchinson would have had plenty of time (and light) to observe Mr A. and his garb as the couple stood outside the entrance to Millers Court. Like a lot of people here I keep away from the Hutchinson threads as that way madness lies, but for what it's worth I'd say that if Hutchinson had been Kelly's murderer he would have to have been as stupid as anyone who ever existed to inject himself into the police investigation.

thanks for the info guys

regarding the extent of witness testimony...

in 'the complete history of jack the ripper' pp 131-2, sugden notes dr. phillips reluctance to divulge the muilations, and coroner baxters reasons why he must state them, & also with regards to witness testimony:

'in the first case he was obligued by law to take the whole of dr. phillips' evidence, fot the statute de coronatore required coroners to inquire into the nature, characters and size of every wound on a dead body to enter the information on their rolls. the purpose of this requirement was to preserve the evidence of the crime.... similarly, as baxter intimated at the chapman inquest, it was important that the testimonies of all the witnesses be fully entered in the records of the court so that their evidence might in future be turned up even if they themselves could no longer be traced. [italics added.] baxter believed... that the publication of police knowledge furthered the process of detection by eliciting fresh information from the press and general public.'

[GregBaron]

Clarifications....

Thanks Ben for the clarifications...

It doesn't seem like Hutch walking around in the rain all night moping is a great excuse.....I wonder if people passed out in doorways on nights without doss money?

It just seems to me that in the other murders JTR was all but a ghost and Hutch was suddenly center stage....

But again, anyone capable of the horror perpetrated on MJK, to me was also the Ripper as not many can stoop to such depravity....especially to someone he knew and was supposedly friends with...........I'm sorry I just can't see Hutch as our man..............based more on intuition than evidence naturally............

[Ben]

Hutchinson would have had plenty of time (and light) to observe Mr A. and his garb as the couple stood outside the entrance to Millers Court

Are you kidding?

Hutchinson claimed to have been standing at the corner of Dorset Street when the couple stood at the entrance to Miller's Court. Already that's quite a distance in the dark, and with no light above the entance to Miller's Court (none that I'm aware of anyway). He could have observed nothing but dark figures conversing from that distance and in those lighting conditions. If Hutchinson had any opportunity to observe the man's garb, it could only have occured on Commerical Street.

for what it's worth I'd say that if Hutchinson had been Kelly's murderer he would have to have been as stupid as anyone who ever existed to inject himself into the police investigation.

Well it isn't worth much, Stephen.

Not when examples from history point in the polar opposite direction from the one you're advocating. I'd humbly submit that if you familiarized yourself a little more with other serial cases, you'd be flinging a few less accusations of "stupidity" around.

[Jon Guy]

...but let's not get back into that--bit late for me and time to dim my own lights

Nos da, Claire

[claire]

There were 'night-houses' but I'm not sure if this was one. And, of course, there is always the wonderful tradition of a lock-in, but this usually involves dimming the old lights...but let's not get back into that--bit late for me and time to dim my own lights

[Stephen Thomas]

i only see what i believe to be two lamps on the right:

Hi Joel

Yes, and the one in the centre of the photo in post #254 would be the one above the entrance to Crossinghams across the road from Millers Court. Chris Scott recently posted a report from a Scottish newspaper that stated that Dorset Street was very brightly lit at night but I can't find it in order to quote. Hutchinson would have had plenty of time (and light) to observe Mr A. and his garb as the couple stood outside the entrance to Millers Court. Like a lot of people here I keep away from the Hutchinson threads as that way madness lies, but for what it's worth I'd say that if Hutchinson had been Kelly's murderer he would have to have been as stupid as anyone who ever existed to inject himself into the police investigation.

[Jon Guy]

to be honest jon ive absolutely no idea, as i dont recall when licencing laws restricted opening times (help me out . however, it seems it was not unusual for the people in this area to be up and about during the night so it seems reasonable there were at least dwellings giving out light. however im not sure the pub would be completely dead after hours either. something ill look into.

Hi Joel

According to Charles Booth " Life and Labour of the people in London", 1903,
most pubs opened at 07.30 or 08.00 and closed at 12.30.

[Ben]

Hi Greg,

Just another brief observation.

When Hutchinson claimed to have left the court, it's important to remember that he didn't have a "home" to go to as such. The Victoria Home was closed to all but ticket holders, and Hutchinson had missed the ticket-purchasing cut-off point in addition to having no money to pay for one anyway. He then claimed to have "walked about" all night at the supposed time of the murder.

These are Hutchinson's claims, and I've always found it rather interesting that "walking about" would have been the only albi available to the real murderer of Mary Jane Kelly - whoever he was - if he was quizzed about his movements that night. Pretty much everything else could have been investigated and contradicted.

We can't ascertain the identity of the man Lewis saw for certain, but if it was Hutchinson, we only have his word for it that his presence there was engendered by innocent circumstances.

Best regards,
Ben

[Monty]

Gaslamps

As some of you may know, its a subject close to my heart!

I could bang on about them all night and bore the arse off you but I wont. I will say that each lamp burns differently, some may burn deficiently (due to poor gas quality) but a real decent one of the time would burn the equvilant of your fridge light. As for the spacing, I know a man who may know, Ill text him to join in.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Are we sure that this shot was taken from the western end of Dorset Street?

We'd best take this onto another thread *, Maurice! My fault - I shouldn't have digressed when I did.

* In fact, I have done.

[The Grave Maurice]

Are we sure that this shot was taken from the western end of Dorset Street? Rumbelow and Aliffe got into a tiny tiff about this photo in Baltimore. Don thought it was looking east, and Andy thought it was looking west. No one wanted to disagree publicly with Don but, privately, some people voiced the opinion that, if you were looking east, you would see Itchy Park at the end of the block. What appears to be in the background, however, are the buildings on Crispin Street.

[Ben]

Hi Greg,

No one ever claimed Sarah Lewis said “I saw George Hutchison” standing in the corner, she said I saw a man, right?,

That was what she stated at the inquest, but for all Hutchinson knew that didn't reflect the full extent of her sighting. We know that another witness at an earlier inquest had given a brief description, only for a much fuller one to emerge later. The same may well have occured with Lewis' evidence for all Hutchinson knew.

There's also a difference between a sighting and a description. One can acquire a good sighting of something or someone without necessarily being able to relay a good description.

I think he was so observant because 1) he didn’t like seeing anyone with his ‘girl’ especially a well dressed man (envy) 2) Everyone was looking for the Ripper and would often identify ‘suspects’ especially fellows they didn’t like

Scary Jews with Astrakhan coats thick chains and black parcels were also the obvious scapegoats for anyone wishing to deflect suspicion away from themselves.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Out of curiosity - Dorset Street, that has about the worst reputation of them all, seems to have been very well lit at some stretches

...indeed, in some stretches, Fish. As I noted a little earlier, the north-western part (foreground) seems to have a decent sprinkling of lamps but, whilst I appreciate that perspective and litereral or photographic fog gets worse as one heads east, there does seem to be a falling-off in the number of street lamps towards the Miller's Court end of the street, certainly on the southern side.

[claire]

"Where's that damned wall again?"

It´s clearly visible at the café, Claire - bathing in gaslight

Ah! That explains why I didn't see it until it was too late (I win, I win)

As regards the other business, with the distribution of the lamps--I've been trying to find that out. No luck so far, but I've been busy getting stuff done that couldn't wait. I'll give it a go when I get to London at the end of this week, since it seems like the utterly anoraky activity I can waste my entire holiday on

[GregBaron]

A Possibility....

Boy, you people are as stubborn as a group of drunken storm troopers……..

Can’t we allow someone there 2 cents without assaulting them?

Everyone has valid points, at least to an extent.

Many artists do sketch a scene and them embellish…..perhaps Van Gogh or whomever set up his canvas at dusk where visibility was still decent, got a good vision of the activities going on and then began to weave his magic…..the degree of visibility is an issue yet we can’t take an end result too seriously….but perhaps the light did project more than we presently believe…….?

Claire and Joel both have valid points too, there’s no reason Hutch couldn’t have created Astrakhan man to throw suspicion off of himself although like Claire, I doubt it. No one ever claimed Sarah Lewis said “I saw George Hutchison” standing in the corner, she said I saw a man, right?, with some sort of special Hat. That’s hardly incriminating evidence. I also don’t think JTR was worried about getting his ‘props’, he was in the paper more than the Queen for crying out loud….

Hutch remembering so many details is a bit perplexing. Sure was an observant fellow for a fish porter or whatever he was and of course in whatever type of lighting that did exist. I think he was so observant because 1) he didn’t like seeing anyone with his ‘girl’ especially a well dressed man (envy) 2) Everyone was looking for the Ripper and would often identify ‘suspects’ especially fellows they didn’t like 3) He probably thought he was a Jew and we know how fond everyone was of the recently arrived Jews….

I think Hutch probably waited awhile in the rain fuming most likely as Astrakhan man did his song and dance with MJK in room 13. At some point Ast. man may have come out and we can’t know if Hutch was still around. Did he beat up poor Ast. Man?...I guess we’ll never know. Or did Ast. man throw a Toff whipping on him? Hmmm…. If Hutch was still around, he may have gone to room 13 to argue or whatever with MJK. She may have blown him off and gone to bed or gone back out in search of more cash. Sure, he may have also come in and began ‘ripping’ her but I think it’s more likely he went home with his tail between his legs and accepted the brush off. Although if he did engage her after Astrakhan had left and she wasn’t ripped open, he would have had to be very vindictive to try to pin the murder on Ast.. when he knew he didn’t do the deed. Of course more murders could also follow, showing the falsehood of his identification as well. Another possibility is he did see her ripped, said nothing, and a couple of days later tried to finger Ast…man? Unlikely……….He probably waited awhile, got too darn wet and unhappy and just went home. Methinks JTR came later, remember the murder scream was sometime about 4 in the morning so I think Ast. and Hutch were probably gone when JTR snuck in (and maybe he opened the door through the window or perhaps MJK had picked him up at 3 or 4 in the morn?) He then went in and did his work while Hutch and Astraman were long gone………….Just a thought you all, please don’t eviscerate me……..!