Who *are* Jack the Ripper(s) ?

[CraigInTwinCities]

p.s. And just to answer that thing about the title of my Lizzie Borden book, it's a play on words: axe/ask. Make of it what you will. There are several valid interprettations.

Dave,

Sorry, no. There are not "several valid interpretations" of your title. There is only one.

To wit: "I am not a serious researcher and I take the crime I am writing about so lightly as to have no respect for anyone associated with it, or anyone foolish enough to buy such juvenile drivel, so I therefore feel free to resort to playground jokes on the matter."

Pass.

Hi Dave,

Im pleased to see a new poster discuss the fact that there were likely a few killers involved in the 10 or 11 potential Ripper Victims, and possibly within the Canonical Group of 5 as well.

Many arguments for the inclusion of one victim or another within the Canon to Jacks list, cite the "fact" that a serial madman was on the loose and therefore should be considered as the killer of the woman in question by her throat cut, or her occupation, or by the deserted location....or all three.

Well....Jack didnt kill Ada apparently, nor Emma, unless he was a quartet....he wasnt thought to have killed Martha, or the Torso discovered in early October. Nor was he thought to have killed Alice McKenzie, nor the next Torso, nor Coles.

It would seem that there were indeed other killers of the same kinds of women, in similar circumstances, and with similar, sometimes with more comprehensive, horrific mutilations. During the same "Ripper" period.

The point is a valid one David, regardless of the banter.

Best regards.

[Celesta]

Well Mr Rehak, what do you think about the number of victims? We have posters who put the number of victims as much as thirteen though some say fourteen. Personally I would say the answer was 42.
Rosey :-)

Hmmm, 42. That answer has a Universal ring to it.

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Hello Ripperites!

I'm a scholar/researcher/historian of the Lizzie Borden case and a Ripper enthusiast/crime buff who's done a little work with police as a frelance detective, mostly in the capacity of information-gathering. Lizzie Borden is to the Americans what Jack the Ripper is to you Brits, the most fascinating Victorian true crime murder mystery. Anyway, I'm not sure how familair you are with the Borden double murders, but I don't wanna take this thread off-topic. I have a question which I'd love one of my fellow Ripper enthusiasts or one of the experts to take a crack at answering...

...We all know the 5 cannonical murders, but altogether there are 8 or 9 murders which are more or less often referred to as Ripper killings but sometimes dismissed because there was no mutilation, or it happened too long after the Mary Kelly murder, or etc. But if we take all 8 killings into account, it would appear to me based on the various circumstantial evidence, that there was not just ONE "Jack the Ripper" but several, perhaps 2 or 3 altogether, probably however working independently of each other. But still. The 4 or 5 cannonical murders were probably by the same hand, but the others were likely all each done by a different guy in each case. That's at least how I see it based on what we know. What do you good peope think? Thank you for your time, and I look forward to reading any responses.

David Rehak
author of "Did Lizzie Borden Axe For It?"

Well Mr Rehak, what do you think about the number of victims? We have posters who put the number of victims as much as thirteen though some say fourteen. Personally I would say the answer was 42.
Rosey :-)

[Sam Flynn]

I love the title of the book, I had a working title for my JTR book entitled "Jack the Ripper, Nise to meet you, to meet you knife!"

What about "You get nothing for a double event - not in this game!"?

[Mike Covell]

Mike,
I guess by the past tense "had a working title" you mean you realized that if you actually went through with using that title you'd be laughed off every Ripper board in existence and never be taken seriously by anyone with even a remotely scholarly approach to the case and decided to ditch the title for something less completely cheddar-like?

I "Had" the title then realised you would laugh at me

[Ally]

Mike,
I guess by the past tense "had a working title" you mean you realized that if you actually went through with using that title you'd be laughed off every Ripper board in existence and never be taken seriously by anyone with even a remotely scholarly approach to the case and decided to ditch the title for something less completely cheddar-like?

[Mike Covell]

I love the title of the book, I had a working title for my JTR book entitled "Jack the Ripper, Nise to meet you, to meet you knife!"

As for different rippers, there are even theories that the C5 were not 5 but maybe less with some people ruling out Mary Kelly, and others Liz Stride!

Welcome to the boards and have fun.

[Sam Flynn]

I say yes... the mysteries are equal and continue to fascinate years later.
Gareth says no... in terms of serial killing and press coverage.
Graham says no ...in terms of sociological impact.

Does this say something about what draws each of us to this case or just random BS yakking?

Perhaps not, Ally - that's an interesting point, which strikes a chord with me at least.

[Ally]

Interesting the responses. OP makes a statement that equates the Jack the Ripper murders with Lizzie Borden.

I say yes... the mysteries are equal and continue to fascinate years later.
Gareth says no... in terms of serial killing and press coverage.
Graham says no ...in terms of sociological impact.

Does this say something about what draws each of us to this case or just random BS yakking?

[Graham]

p.s. And just to answer that thing about the title of my Lizzie Borden book, it's a play on words: axe/ask. Make of it what you will. There are several valid interprettations.

2Graham: you're very much mistaken if you think Lizzie didn't have the same national and indeed international coverage and impact as the Ripper murders.

Coverage and impact are two different things.

Graham

[DaveR]

p.s. And just to answer that thing about the title of my Lizzie Borden book, it's a play on words: axe/ask. Make of it what you will. There are several valid interprettations.

2Graham: you're very much mistaken if you think Lizzie didn't have the same national and indeed international coverage and impact as the Ripper murders.

[Graham]

Whether she was guilty or not - and I can't really say that I'm all that bothered either way - Lizzie Borden was 'another' domestic case. Jack the Ripper, the Whitechapel Murderer - call him or they what you will - was not.
In fact, they were as far removed from domestic murder as you are ever likely to get. As Celesta rightly says, Lizzie Borden didn't have the wallop of the Ripper Murders. Neither did Lizzie Borden have much in the way of social impact, as did the Ripper Murders. Neither - oh, I could go on and on.

Cheers,

Graham

PS: to be honest, I think that the 19th century equivalent of the Ripper Murders in terms of their social impact can be matched in America only by the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. There - that should keep the posts coming in.

[DaveR]

2Ally: you're absolutely right about Lizzie. HH Holmes is now familiar to much of the reading public because of a recently published bestseller on the case but I suspect it was a largely forgotten case until recently when the book came out. However, widespread interest in and knowledge of Lizzie Borden has never wavered in the States since 1892. Most Americans today know at least something about Lizzie and have heard the rhyme. She's been deep-seated in the American psyche in the same way as the Ripper has been in England. The reason for this appears to be the high mystery element. With Holmes, we know he did it, and how. What we crave is the who-dunnit factor. That seems to be what keeps Lizzie and the Ripper alive.



Anyway, please feel free anyone to take a crack at my question about multiple Rippers.

Thanks Celesta, I enjoy reading the various threads.

[Celesta]

I was thinking in terms of HHH being a contemporary Victorian serial killer who attracted a huge amount of sensational press coverage, Ally, rather than the "mystery" element. Even there, I'd respectfully suggest that the mystery around Jack the Ripper is a degree different than that surrounding Borden - at least when debating the latter, you've already "caught your rabbit", so to speak, whether you believe she did it or not.

Of course, you make a good point when you say that relatively few now know about HHH compared to Borden - quite why that should be the case, I really can't fathom. It's almost like the Ratcliff Highway murders of 1811 being better-known than the later Ripper series, to draw a British parallel, which would seem a bit "back-to-front" to me. Perhaps Borden's having a catchy rhyme written about her helped.

Hi Sam, Also the fact that it was her father and stepmother adds to the notoriety. If we didn't know Holmes identity, his fame would be much greater. As you say, we "caught the rabbit."

Best,

Cel