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What EAR/ONS teaches us about JtR

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  • What EAR/ONS teaches us about JtR

    Two really important things have been highlighted with the capture of Joseph James DeAngelo aka EAR/ONS (providing no further murders are attached to him post 1986) that we can also apply to JtR.

    The first being that a serial killer in the same league as JtR (and actually much worse than Jack if we are to believe the numbers) was able to stop committing murders for more than 30 years. Let that sink in. If JtR was also able to stop himself (rather than die, move or end up in prison as are the commonly believed scenario’s for Jack) then he may have continued living well into his old age. This means we can’t so easily overlook a raft of previously discarded suspects, who lived normal lives post 1888.

    And just as importantly, EAR/ONS continued to live in the area. He was known to harass & stalk his victims post the crime, and is now suspected of keeping an eye on victims he may have known the whereabouts of, in order to relive his crimes. This sounds so plausible for Jack as well, if he truly was a local who has slipped under the radar. Maybe being in close proximity to the crime scenes for the remainder of his life, was enough to satiate his urges.

    I follow the EARONS sub on Reddit, where the case has been discussed for years, much like these forums on Casebook. The main thing the long term posters are saying is, all the crazy theories & over thinking of the case is what led many astray, and that the most logical suspect was clear from the given information & know facts. A cop (he knew too much about police procedures). Ex Navy (he was skilled in tying specialty Navy knots). A local (he knew his escape routes well, and often left on foot or by bicycle). A women in his life named Bonnie (his ex fiancée, who he never married. Many claimed the victim misheard “Bonnie” as “Mommy” – they were wrong). His strange smell (he was fired from the police for stealing Dog Repellent Spray. The strange odour attributed to him by victims, was discarded as BO, yet the dog repellent spray theft by JJD made it into the papers at the time). And that's just to name a few.

    The evidence was all there, but was argued away by people who felt he must have been more of a monster, that he couldn’t hide in plain sight. Joseph James DeAngelo has proved them all wrong.

    If we eliminate all the unlikely theories about Jack, all the fantastical scenarios, and focus JUST on the evidence, what do we have?

    I'll start. I believe he was a Whitechapel local, who knew his way around. Not some out of towner who came to Whitechapel to commit murder, but a poor, working class local who lived in the immediate area of the crime scenes. That's how he always managed to disappear so quickly after each murder. He probably just went home.
    Cheers,
    Pandora.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Pandora View Post
    Two really important things have been highlighted with the capture of Joseph James DeAngelo aka EAR/ONS (providing no further murders are attached to him post 1986) that we can also apply to JtR.

    The first being that a serial killer in the same league as JtR (and actually much worse than Jack if we are to believe the numbers) was able to stop committing murders for more than 30 years. Let that sink in. If JtR was also able to stop himself (rather than die, move or end up in prison as are the commonly believed scenario’s for Jack) then he may have continued living well into his old age. This means we can’t so easily overlook a raft of previously discarded suspects, who lived normal lives post 1888.

    And just as importantly, EAR/ONS continued to live in the area. He was known to harass & stalk his victims post the crime, and is now suspected of keeping an eye on victims he may have known the whereabouts of, in order to relive his crimes. This sounds so plausible for Jack as well, if he truly was a local who has slipped under the radar. Maybe being in close proximity to the crime scenes for the remainder of his life, was enough to satiate his urges.

    I follow the EARONS sub on Reddit, where the case has been discussed for years, much like these forums on Casebook. The main thing the long term posters are saying is, all the crazy theories & over thinking of the case is what led many astray, and that the most logical suspect was clear from the given information & know facts. A cop (he knew too much about police procedures). Ex Navy (he was skilled in tying specialty Navy knots). A local (he knew his escape routes well, and often left on foot or by bicycle). A women in his life named Bonnie (his ex fiancée, who he never married. Many claimed the victim misheard “Bonnie” as “Mommy” – they were wrong). His strange smell (he was fired from the police for stealing Dog Repellent Spray. The strange odour attributed to him by victims, was discarded as BO, yet the dog repellent spray theft by JJD made it into the papers at the time). And that's just to name a few.

    The evidence was all there, but was argued away by people who felt he must have been more of a monster, that he couldn’t hide in plain sight. Joseph James DeAngelo has proved them all wrong.

    If we eliminate all the unlikely theories about Jack, all the fantastical scenarios, and focus JUST on the evidence, what do we have?

    I'll start. I believe he was a Whitechapel local, who knew his way around. Not some out of towner who came to Whitechapel to commit murder, but a poor, working class local who lived in the immediate area of the crime scenes. That's how he always managed to disappear so quickly after each murder. He probably just went home.
    If that were the case I suspect Whitechapel would have given him up.

    I dont think you can totally compare a modern day serial killer to one who killed 130 years ago. The world has changed since 1888.

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
      If that were the case I suspect Whitechapel would have given him up.

      I dont think you can totally compare a modern day serial killer to one who killed 130 years ago. The world has changed since 1888.

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      I agree for sure, that the world has changed - and I'm not comparing the JtR & EAR/ONS persay. The point I was trying to make was, if the common theories in regards to EAR/ONS had overlooked the simple explanation, for more fantastical theories - perhaps the same has happened with JtR?

      If we eliminate all the far fetched theories, and follow Occam's Razor principle, what are the most likely scenario's we are left with?
      Cheers,
      Pandora.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pandora View Post
        I agree for sure, that the world has changed - and I'm not comparing the JtR & EAR/ONS persay. The point I was trying to make was, if the common theories in regards to EAR/ONS had overlooked the simple explanation, for more fantastical theories - perhaps the same has happened with JtR?

        If we eliminate all the far fetched theories, and follow Occam's Razor principle, what are the most likely scenario's we are left with?
        Two in my opinion, the first is like you said a local. the second is someone who went into Whitechapel to kill and was able to get out undetected. On that basis if you look at the majority of the murders they were all in easy reach of main thoroughfares, making it easy for the killer to then blend in with the rest of the public who were about in those main thoroughfares at that time of the morning. So neither can be proved or disproved. We get back to personal opinions.

        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Pandora View Post
          I agree for sure, that the world has changed - and I'm not comparing the JtR & EAR/ONS persay. The point I was trying to make was, if the common theories in regards to EAR/ONS had overlooked the simple explanation, for more fantastical theories - perhaps the same has happened with JtR?

          If we eliminate all the far fetched theories, and follow Occam's Razor principle, what are the most likely scenario's we are left with?
          Ocean says that Mr UN Known done it.

          And jack’s family haven’t entered DNA In ancestry and if they did there’s nothing to compare it to.

          No not even a stained table cloth.
          G U T

          There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by GUT View Post
            Ocean says that Mr UN Known done it.

            And jack’s family haven’t entered DNA In ancestry and if they did there’s nothing to compare it to.

            No not even a stained table cloth.
            Hi GUT,

            You've misinterpreted my post, so perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

            I am not suggesting that there is DNA connected to JtR, and I am not suggesting that EAR/ONS crime spree is similar to JtR’s.

            The point I was trying to make was, that many of the EAR/ONS amateur investigators, fell victim to overthinking the evidence, which led them to creating much more fantastical theories, than the simple more logical solution.

            IE: He didn’t die, he stopped. He didn’t move, he lived local. Many in the EAR/ONS camp thought he stopped because he died or moved – much like many in the Ripper camp. I’m simply suggesting we look at what we do know, and apply the simplest logic to it.
            Cheers,
            Pandora.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
              Two in my opinion, the first is like you said a local. the second is someone who went into Whitechapel to kill and was able to get out undetected. On that basis if you look at the majority of the murders they were all in easy reach of main thoroughfares, making it easy for the killer to then blend in with the rest of the public who were about in those main thoroughfares at that time of the morning. So neither can be proved or disproved. We get back to personal opinions.

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              Sure, fair enough. Back to the same old conversations then.
              Cheers,
              Pandora.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pandora View Post
                Hi GUT,

                You've misinterpreted my post, so perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.

                I am not suggesting that there is DNA connected to JtR, and I am not suggesting that EAR/ONS crime spree is similar to JtR’s.

                The point I was trying to make was, that many of the EAR/ONS amateur investigators, fell victim to overthinking the evidence, which led them to creating much more fantastical theories, than the simple more logical solution.

                IE: He didn’t die, he stopped. He didn’t move, he lived local. Many in the EAR/ONS camp thought he stopped because he died or moved – much like many in the Ripper camp. I’m simply suggesting we look at what we do know, and apply the simplest logic to it.
                But what is more likely

                He just stopped

                Or

                He died or was caught (maybe for something else).

                I know which has been most common.
                G U T

                There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I believe he was a Whitechapel local, who knew his way around. Not some out of towner who came to Whitechapel to commit murder, but a poor, working class local who lived in the immediate area of the crime scenes. That's how he always managed to disappear so quickly after each murder. He probably just went home.
                  It is the simplest solution with the fewest assumptions.

                  If it was a scientific theory which had been peer reviewed this would be in the text books.
                  My opinion is all I have to offer here,

                  Dave.

                  Smilies are canned laughter.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Pandora View Post
                    Sure, fair enough. Back to the same old conversations then.
                    Sadly, that how its going to stay. the old accepted theories are hard for some hard line researchers to dismiss in favor of other new alternatives.

                    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GUT View Post
                      But what is more likely

                      He just stopped

                      Or

                      He died or was caught (maybe for something else).

                      I know which has been most common.
                      I don´t think we can calculate the correct number of serial killers who have stopped on their own account, Gut. So the comparison cannot be made.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pandora View Post
                        Two really important things have been highlighted with the capture of Joseph James DeAngelo aka EAR/ONS (providing no further murders are attached to him post 1986) that we can also apply to JtR.

                        The first being that a serial killer in the same league as JtR (and actually much worse than Jack if we are to believe the numbers) was able to stop committing murders for more than 30 years. Let that sink in. If JtR was also able to stop himself (rather than die, move or end up in prison as are the commonly believed scenario’s for Jack) then he may have continued living well into his old age. This means we can’t so easily overlook a raft of previously discarded suspects, who lived normal lives post 1888.

                        And just as importantly, EAR/ONS continued to live in the area. He was known to harass & stalk his victims post the crime, and is now suspected of keeping an eye on victims he may have known the whereabouts of, in order to relive his crimes. This sounds so plausible for Jack as well, if he truly was a local who has slipped under the radar. Maybe being in close proximity to the crime scenes for the remainder of his life, was enough to satiate his urges.

                        I follow the EARONS sub on Reddit, where the case has been discussed for years, much like these forums on Casebook. The main thing the long term posters are saying is, all the crazy theories & over thinking of the case is what led many astray, and that the most logical suspect was clear from the given information & know facts. A cop (he knew too much about police procedures). Ex Navy (he was skilled in tying specialty Navy knots). A local (he knew his escape routes well, and often left on foot or by bicycle). A women in his life named Bonnie (his ex fiancée, who he never married. Many claimed the victim misheard “Bonnie” as “Mommy” – they were wrong). His strange smell (he was fired from the police for stealing Dog Repellent Spray. The strange odour attributed to him by victims, was discarded as BO, yet the dog repellent spray theft by JJD made it into the papers at the time). And that's just to name a few.

                        The evidence was all there, but was argued away by people who felt he must have been more of a monster, that he couldn’t hide in plain sight. Joseph James DeAngelo has proved them all wrong.

                        If we eliminate all the unlikely theories about Jack, all the fantastical scenarios, and focus JUST on the evidence, what do we have?

                        I'll start. I believe he was a Whitechapel local, who knew his way around. Not some out of towner who came to Whitechapel to commit murder, but a poor, working class local who lived in the immediate area of the crime scenes. That's how he always managed to disappear so quickly after each murder. He probably just went home.
                        I agree with JtR being a Whitechapel local.

                        However, EAR/ONS and JtR were totally different beasts imo. EAR/ONS is one of the most intelligent and cunning organised serial killers we know of. JtR was a fairly average unorganized slasher.

                        Btw any evidence for sure that EAR didn't say "mommy" at his crime scenes? Far more people heard him say "mommy" than "Bonnie". Reports(and they may be wrong) are that DeAngelo held his mothers memory in deep reverence. IF he indeed had large pictures of his mother in his bedroom the chances are that he did say "mommy" at the crime scenes. I only say this to ensure that certain contentious facts or myths about the EAR case do not become fact.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          i know other posters have brought this up but i do feel the dates of the murders of the C5 plus Martha [ who i believe to be a victim ], can tell us something. On bank Holidays and weekends at the end of the months or the first week of the months. That's when he was free to kill. I have no idea what occupations of work fit these dates but i feel it wouldn't be surprising if Jack is ever found, the dates and times of said murders are seen as a form of circumstantial evidence.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think what it shows, more than anything, is that you should focus on something that is unusual about that person, and there is a very good chance it's meaningful and so is a lead worth pouring a significant amount of effort into.

                            The ONS/EAR was able to keep family dogs quiet and he smelled foul according to some surviving victims.

                            That is unusual and it would have been wise to focus on that. Get everyone 'round a table and come up with some ideas, however bizarre they may seem, as to why that could have been and is there a connection.

                            I'm confident that after a while someone would have said he sprayed himself with something to keep dogs away, and it had a foul smell; and from there it would have been a small step to search the local archives for someone somehow connected with dog repellent. And, they would have found the man was arrested for stealing dog repellent and a hammer; which would have been cause to really start looking at him, particularly when they found he was an ex-policeman and with a military background (for obvious reasons).

                            Another point of interest, is that someone came forward months after witnessing ONS and gave an outstanding photo-fit of the man now arrested, and so witness statements, even after the event, are not worthless.

                            There is little surviving in the archives regarding JTR, but what is unusual about him is the whole Mary Kelly skinning her to the bone event. That is worth focusing on. There is clearly a good reason why he would go to such lengths.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It also tells us that Mcnaughten,Andersson,Littlechild,as far as their suspects are concerned,they were just guessing.The City/Met police was faced with the same situation the police in California was faced in the 1970's/80's with the Golden State Killer,they had the crime scenes and the evidence from those and both were clueless as to who was the killer.

                              Only when this happened,DNA family tree retracing, did they found the killer.

                              https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/05/...-grandparents/
                              Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                              M. Pacana

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