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So the Ripper, had a beard?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by SuspectZero View Post
    Who can see that kind of detail in the dark from the distance he claimed he viewed the man?
    Clearly this was a lie.
    Suspect Zero,

    Hutch saw the man and woman close up at the Queen's Head prior to his watching them go up the court in Dorset Street. He had allegedly observed them for a period of time in Commercial Street.

    I hope my maps don't bother you guys but it's easier to illustrate the events based on Hutchinson's statement.

    About 2.00am, 9, I was coming by Thrawl Street, Commercial Street, and just before I got to Flower and Dean Street I met the murdered woman Kelly and she said to me, 'Hutchinson, will you lend me Sixpence', I said, 'I can't , I've spent all my money going down to Romford', she said, 'Good morning, I must go and find some money'.
    She went away towards Thrawl Street, a man coming in the opposite direction to Kelly tapped her on the shoulder and said something to her, they both burst out laughing. I heard her say, 'Alright', to him, and the man said, 'You will be alright for what I have told you', he then placed his right hand around her shoulders. He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand, with a kind of strap round it.
    I stood against the lamp of the Queens Head public house and watched him. They both came past me, and the man hung down his head with his hat over his eyes. I stooped down and looked him in the face, he looked at me stern.
    They both went into Dorset Street, I followed them. They both stood at the corner of the court for about 3 minutes. He said something to her, she said, 'Alright my dear, come along, you will be comfortable'. He then placed his arm on her shoulder and gave her a kiss, she said she had lost her handkerchief. He then pulled his handkerchief , a red one, out and gave it to her. They both then went up the court together.
    I then went to the court to see if I could see them, but could not . I stood there for about three quarters of an hour to see if they came out, they did not, so I went away.


    It seems to me the man was following Hutchinson up Commercial Street from the South to the North. That is if Hutch is telling the truth.

    Red Dot= Hutchinson meeting Kelly just shy of Flower and Dean. She asks him for money. Hutch was coming from the south at this point heading north.
    Short Yellow Line= Mary Jane heading toward Thrawl Street after Hutch has no money to offer.
    Short Blue Line= Man coming in the opposite direction as Mary Jane and confronts her.
    Red Line= Hutch heading to Queens Head after speaking to Mary Jane.
    Long Blue and Yellow Lines= Kelly and Stranger head to Dorset Street and pass Hutch as Queens Head.
    Green rectangle= Queens Head

    Last edited by jerryd; 01-07-2018, 02:38 PM.

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    • #17
      Yet for all Hutchinson's "accuracy",he got the name of the pub wrong.

      Police statement was corrected to The Queens Head without being initialed.

      He also describes button boots and gaiters.

      He could not see the buttons on the boots under the gaiters.

      Something fishy going on there. Reckon he was a personal groom.

      Sort of thing that a sailor possibly learnt during training.
      Last edited by DJA; 01-07-2018, 08:59 PM. Reason: Buttons and boots.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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      • #18
        Francis Thompson, a modern suspect, had, by November, 1888. A beard. Thompson benefactor, the editor Wilfrid Meynell was friends with George Sims.

        Author of

        "Jack the Ripper, The Works of Francis Thompson"

        http://www.francisjthompson.com/

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Richard Patterson View Post
          Francis Thompson, a modern suspect, had, by November, 1888. A beard. Thompson benefactor, the editor Wilfrid Meynell was friends with George Sims.

          Another bearded Ripper suspect. Here is poet and very bad printer W. J. Ibbett to be discussed by GWU Professor Emeritus Casey Smith at RipperCon in Baltimore on the weekend of April 7-8.

          Christopher T. George
          Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
          just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
          For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
          RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
            The photograph of Sims, which supposedly resembled the Ripper, was on the cover of Sims's pamphlet "The Social Kaleidoscope" (1881).

            And yes, he did have a full beard.

            Here's a rather poor copy of the photograph.

            http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/10624.html
            Here is a better version of the photograph of Sims on the cover of his 1881 pamphlet "The Social Kaleidoscope" and a couple of similar portraits of the writer.







            (Note: George Hutchinson was an artist of the day; nothing to do with the eyewitness of the same name in the Mary Jane Kelly case.)
            Christopher T. George
            Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
            just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
            For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
            RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
              It's Sir Lancelot Spratt!
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                @ Suspect Zero: Ha! Sims was certainly a toff, wasn't he?

                @ Station Cat: Thanks for the rundown on Sims and that great pic. I think the human memory is an unreliable thing, and that the stall-holder got things mixed up. No other witness description of the Ripper ever said a full beard, did it?
                Hi Pat

                The point of course is that back then as now no one has the slightest idea what the Ripper looked like, as I will be discussing in my presentation on "The Legend of Jack the Ripper" at RipperCon in Baltimore four months from now (get your reservations in!!!). As the old saying goes: "Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief. . ."

                Cheers

                Chris
                Christopher T. George
                Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
                just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
                For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
                RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

                Comment


                • #23
                  Two birds of a feather?

                  Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
                  Another bearded Ripper suspect. Here is poet and very bad printer W. J. Ibbett to be discussed by GWU Professor Emeritus Casey Smith at RipperCon in Baltimore on the weekend of April 7-8.

                  Thompson and Ibbett seem to resemble each other rather closely in the two photos posted by Christopher, don't they?
                  Curious.
                  Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                  ---------------
                  Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                  ---------------

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post
                    Thompson and Ibbett seem to resemble each other rather closely in the two photos posted by Christopher, don't they?
                    Curious.
                    I had the same thought.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                      With all the witness sightings, the odds are at least one of them saw the Ripper.

                      I've always been surprised at the lack of sightings after the murders. You'd think at those early hours someone would've seen a suspicious individual leaving the crime scene. There are a few nuggets in the newspapers, like the man on the doorstep cleaning his hands, but nothing substantial.
                      Interesting observation on both counts here Harry. Certainly something for me to ponder over for a while

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SuspectZero View Post
                        I quote from the police description provided after the George Hutchinson interview: "Description: age about 34 or 35, height 5ft 6, complexion pale, dark eyes and eye lashes, slight moustache curled up each end and hair dark, very surley looking; dress, long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan and a dark jacket under, light waistcoat, dark trousers, dark felt hat turned down in the middle, button boots and gaiters with white buttons, wore a very thick gold chain, white linen collar, black tie with horse shoe pin, respectable appearance, walked very sharp, Jewish appearance. Can be identified."

                        Seems like he borrowed part of the description from a photo of Sims......including the horseshoe pin. Who can see that kind of detail in the dark from the distance he claimed he viewed the man?
                        Clearly this was a lie.

                        You may well be onto something here suspect zero!!!!!

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                          The photograph of Sims, which supposedly resembled the Ripper, was on the cover of Sims's pamphlet "The Social Kaleidoscope" (1881).

                          And yes, he did have a full beard.

                          Here's a rather poor copy of the photograph.

                          http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4920/10624.html

                          What I find most curious is the fact that even in the days of Victorian facial hair, surely someone with a belter of a beard like SIMMS, would have been the most striking thing that witnesses would remember?

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                          • #28
                            Thought this newspaper article might be of interest (no mention of beards), but George SIMMS is mentioned as being a "suspect" towards the end and even puts forward a possible suspect..............
                            Attached Files
                            Last edited by The Station Cat; 01-11-2018, 02:00 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by The Station Cat View Post
                              Thought this newspaper article might be of interest (no mention of beards), but George SIMMS is mentioned as being a "suspect" towards the end and even puts forward a possible suspect..............
                              Hi Station Cat

                              Many thanks for posting that interesting 1924 article. Of course, the drowned man that Sims was proposing as a suspect was Montague John Druitt.

                              Best regards

                              Chris
                              Last edited by ChrisGeorge; 01-11-2018, 06:10 AM.
                              Christopher T. George
                              Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
                              just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
                              For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
                              RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
                                Hi Station Cat

                                Many thanks for posting that interesting 1924 article. Of course, the drowned man that Sims was proposing as a suspect was Montague John Druitt.

                                Best regards

                                Chris

                                No problem, glad it was of interest and yes of course poor old Druitt put in the frame again

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